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These are the earliest marks by Fabergé I have seen. I believe them to be from the 1880's as the assayer mark with year is typically punched in the 1890's.
I have rather difficult to consider Fabergé not using their trademark on items sold by them even in the 1880's. As Qrt.S writes that both Wäkevä and Kollin had their own independent workshop (probaly still in the 1880's), so my best guess is that the tea set is produced in Kollins own workshop that he had established in 1870.
I noticed also from the source that Kollin was replaced by Michael Perhin as head workmaster in 1886 which would suit well with the theory that after that Kollins work continued in his own workshop.
So to summarize the contradicting theories are :
Did faberge produce silver stamped with the company name in Saint Petersburg in the late 1880’s? If yes, where did it all go?
Wakeva and Kollin worked exclusively for faberge in this time period- yes or no?
Other companies at this time often sold production with only the makers mark, government marks but no company' name stamped, which was in turn was often inscribed on the box, I will add other examples if necessary. Couldn’t have faberge done the same especially in the very early days?
Dear Junke are you a 100% sure the faberge marks on the 2 pieces you provided are authentic? They look a lot like Moscow punches on St. Petersburg pieces, I am wandering if a Wakeva piece like mine was not later upgraded?
In the book Masterpieces from the House of Fabergé is said: In Moscow the objects were signed only with the name "K.Fabergé" in Cyrillic letters together with the double-headed eagle as emblem of the Imperial Warrant. But in St.Petersburg, the individual workmaster had the right to sign his objects with a mark showing his initials next to the mark of the firm.
Thereby as it is said I believe there was always the firm mark.
I am not fully aware if Wäkevä also marked in addition to St.Petersburg objects also Moscow objects? If not then you are correct they would be upgrades.
What is commonly meant with unmarked objects is that it has no punches/marks whatsoever. What you show, the six teaspoons in the box, shows clearly that they have punches on the stem. In other words, they are not unmarked. Gratchev could have sold objects made by other masters/companies in their store alongside with objects made by themselves. They were put in a box with Gratchew's logo. Why would such things carry Gratshew's punches? They were not made by Gratchew! Rather normal business with sub contractors. Unfortunately the maker's mark on the spoons are so badly punched that it is impossible to read what it shows (at-least from this photo). That is also what you wrote in Russian.
You should have written that Gratshevs sold item made by other makers but not unmarked items (as said illegal). The tea spoons have marks but very unclear...unfortunately.
Unfortunately I'm not a collector, I investigate silver marks.
The punch FABERGÉ is actually a company logo but not a maker's mark even it is somehow is "considered" to be a maker's mark. The company had strict rules of how its production should be marked and what master had the right to punch his punch, but is a too long story to be explained here. Anyway, Carl Fabergé is not known to have made a singe object. He only managed the company.
Yes I do know this, this is why on Saint Petersburg items the stamp should be Фаберже or FABERGE, and not К.ФАБЕРЖЕ like on these Wakeva pieces, which was reserved for Moscow. so I still wander where all the marked production from the 1880´s went ))?
Is there then a consent that your tea set would have been made in Kollins workshop but not Fabergé workshop? Of course not personally by him as Carl Fabergé neither did the objects, only manged the workshop.
There is definitely my consent that both the tea set and the milk pot were made by the Kollins and Wakeva respective workshops, where I’m not clear if whether these workshops were exclusively working for faberge at this point in time or not, and if not, where did all the silver St. Petersburg Faberge production from the late 1880s disappear to and what did the st Petersburg faberge punches on silver look like at this point in time?
Ahhhhh! This discussion is ...... Shortly, The rich inhabitants in Moscow liked more to have their silver marked with St. Petersburg's punches. They considered it more valuable/finer/elitist that objects with a Moscow town mark. Therefore you can find objects marked K.FABERGÉ with St. Peterburg's town mark and a StP maker's mark. Earlier it has been claimed that St. Petersburg made object unambiguously carry the mark FABERGE while Moscow made objects carry K.FABERGE. Unfortunately it isn't that simple for the above mentioned reasons. No rules without an exception :-)))))
Where the silver disappared!? Isn't it rather obvious what happened? The revolution took care of the silver because it was considered to be capitalistic propaganda and the new state badly needed money! The wast majority was melted and/or sold abroad as scratch metal (as well as the famous eggs). The Soviets regretted it later and tried to buy it back but with a rather poor result.
About the pictures Juke shows. They are good examples of what has been told in this discussion. Stefan Wäkevä's punch SW is seen with the Fabergé mark with the K but made in StP and exclusively for the Moscow market. Had the object been made by Kollin, Nykänen or Pihl it would not have carried the Fabergé punch.
The items on books, internet, auctions etc. are only a fraction of the production by Fabergé and I neither have any access to other materials. Thereby it is difficult to say more on the items by Fabergé from the 1880's. However only the big names did firstly understand the meaning and importance of a trade mark. Probably 99% of the workshops only used their initials made in their workshops as the trade mark concept was new in the late 19th century.
Your tea set could have been sold through Fabergé shop as there was a exclusivity collaboration between Kollin and Carl Fabergé but without the trade mark it makes more sense it is made in the Kollin workshop which is the essence. Also as stated in the book Masterpieces from the House of Fabergé the work masters initials were put beside the Fabergé trade mark on Fabergé workshop made items which I think is quite clear.
I do realize much was melted, but I see tons and tons of Lubavin, Ovchinnikov,Gratchev,Khlebnikov etc etc, even smaller firms like lorie… and no silver faberge production of St. Petersburg from the 1880s survived in comparison…anyways thank you all for your help and happy new years
Here is a photo of a hallmark on a teapot by Lubavin made 1898-1907 and another hallmark on a creamer from a year later 1907-1908 after Lubavin obtained an imperial mandate in 1907, and hence started putting the trademark
My point is Faberge got the imperial mandate in 1885, so just like this Lubavin example I see nothing surprising if Faberge did not yet have the trade mark on the silver pieces immediately in 1886.
Just ideas, I posted this topic because I was hoping for an interesting discussion, otherwise I can easily post tens of kilos of well identified Russian silver ehere everything is clear to me and I have no questions)) I have 42 kilos in my collection )))) but that’s not the point
For the records.
It is mentioned earlier but Fabergé did not always used his punch. Objects ordered by him from Kollin, Nykänen and Pihl were never punched with Fabergé's (trade) mark. Sometimes objects objects made by Mickelsson also lack Fabergé's punch. The matter regarding Fabergé's punching not entirely simple or fully clear. The same goes for when he punched K. ФАБЕРЖЕ or only ФАБЕРЖЕ
I understand your point and note that you are a serious collector!
I think there are not enough objects shown in public to say more about the 1880's. Most are in private, company, royal etc. collections which marks have not been seen in public.
However there are two different things the trade mark and the imperial warrant and they are separate punches in St.Petersburg. The Moscow mark had it permanently due to the fact that it was personally held by Carl Fabergé. Thereby there would have been earlier the trade mark existing separately in St.Petersburg. During this period it can be called trade mark or makers mark.
It is difficult to think there would have not been the makers mark of the company (Fabergé) on the items from the beginning. How would a customer then know and the company differ in public eyes where the item was produced if just every work master would have had their own initials on the items made by the Fabergé company? Also other big companies like Nicols & Plinke etc. used always their company names. It doesn't make sense to me.
