georgian cow creamer

[rareTiffanysilver]

Is anyone able to help me determine whether these georgian cow creamers have fraudulent hallmarks on a newer piece? I have about 15 years of experience with American silver from the 1880s-modern but have very little experience with earlier or English silver so don't know what to look for and don't know how often they are faked. I've bought hundreds of pieces of silver and the only time I ever bought a fake was when I purchased something outside my knowledge base and splurged on what I thought was an 1870s set of russian silver stirrup cups that ended up being modern reproductions despite it being sold by a reputable well known dealer.

[rareTiffanysilver]

Cow creamer 1
https://i.postimg.cc/SxLt02SB/s-l1600-1.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/y6MHsRKx/s-l1600-2.jpg

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[dognose]

Hi,

Please embed your images.

Trev.

[Traintime]

Mooooo-ved this time for your grazing pleasure:

[dancula]

To my non-expert eyes, the marks for London 1817 look ok to me - and the cow looks very pleased with itself.

[rareTiffanysilver]

Hi,

Please embed your images.

Trev.

I tried for about 2 hours without any luck. Used several different platforms to host the image but could not get them to show.

[rareTiffanysilver]

To my non-expert eyes, the marks for London 1817 look ok to me - and the cow looks very pleased with itself.

Thanks dancula,
What I found weird was there was no makers mark anywhere on it. Seems rather unusual for it to be missing but I am not an expert on British silver.

[Essexboy Found]

Hello, is there anything on the lid of the creamer? Detachable parts ought to have some kind of mark on them. A bit like the marks on various parts of a pocket watch case. The marks shown do appear as 1817 marks.

Fishless

[rareTiffanysilver]

Hello, is there anything on the lid of the creamer? Detachable parts ought to have some kind of mark on them. A bit like the marks on various parts of a pocket watch case. The marks shown do appear as 1817 marks.

Fishless

Should the lid have the full set of hallmarks? If so no. The lid is hinged and not removable.

[Essexboy Found]

No not a full set, a lion, date letter, maker maybe. Watch cases are hinged.

Fishless

[Sasropakis]

Is there a trace of the maker's mark to the right from the hallmarks? It looks like there could be a letter B or maybe it's only a reflection or cow's hair.

[Aguest]

:::: There is a cow creamer enthusiast website which lists 2 Cow-Creamer makers and both seem to have been working before 1800, the makers are David Willaum and John Schuppe, but evidence exists for that of a third silversmith who mooved into the cow-making profession, and his name is Robert Miller (working in London) , but I haven't been able to find out any information about this silversmith, and neither has the cow-creamer connoisseur. :::::::

:::: We could try to find more information about Robert Miller and see if he worked as far as 1817, although I kind of doubt it, and also your cow-creamer is stylistically different from the cow-creamer pictured in the 97-year-old magazine article that shows a picture of the cow-creamer attributed to Robert Miller (from an old advertisement for an English silver shop. :::::::

:::: I'm trying to find another example of a cow-creamer from 1800-1820 that might be similar to your cow-creamer, but I can't find any examples as of yet. :::::: I can't believe this cow creamer might be the only example from 1800-1820 to have ever surfaced, could that be possible? :::::::::::::

::::: Also I'm wondering if the official English hallmarks have accidentally overstamped the maker's mark, I keep thinking that I see something in-between the official English hallmarks, but my eyes might be playing tricks on me again and that is totally wrong, but where has the makers mark mooved to? :::::::

[Aguest]

:::: Finally I see the B it just took me awhile and I had to moove the laptop to a different angle to see it. :::::::

:::: There seems to be a letter before the "B" that has been somehow obscured? :::::::

[rareTiffanysilver]

I see the B as well now. Interesting. I guess thats likely the makers mark. Thats a start. Hard to see with all the hair in that area.

[rareTiffanysilver]

I see the B as well now. Interesting. I guess thats likely the makers mark. Thats a start. Hard to see with all the hair in that area. It's interesting the hair was sanded off first for the other areas before they were stamped but not for this area. Is this normal for assay offices to do on textured silver? That would explain that the makers mark I assume is applied before sent to the assay office ? so the assay office only decided to clear the texture for "their" marks? Does that sound plausible? Does anyone think this piece is more recent and "faked" to be earlier. It's certainly an unusual style for that period as this style of detailed hair more realistic cow creamer seems more common in the late 19th century.

[Aguest]

:::::: Just going through the history of cow creamers, I could not find a textured cow such as this until later in the 19th century, so it does strike me as very early for the textured cow, and also I've thought about whether or not the assay office was allowed to shave off a part of the cow hide in order to apply the hallmarks (assuming they had to do so, but it is extremely rare and I do not believe I have ever seen it before this), but the hallmarks are so correct, if these are forged hallmarks, they are the best example of forged English hallmarks that I have ever seen, the details are so good and they match to every other example of 1817 hallmarks that I have yet seen :::::::

::::: Everything you have considered, I have also considered, this is an udderly fascinating object indeed ::::::::::

[rareTiffanysilver]

Thanks for the help, I am going to assume it is legit unless anyone else wants to chime in. I posted a second George III cow creamer in another thread in this London sub-forum. It's the more traditional George III cow creamer. If anyone has thoughts on that one as well I'd love to hear. I'm really only starting to move into silver this early as nearly everything in my collection is 1880 onward.