Russian silver chalice - goblet help

[Yacorie13]

New member here so thank you for having me.

I’ve recently come across this chalice and was trying to research what it was. Although I wasn’t able to figure it out myself someone informed me the marks I see is actually Saint George slaying a dragon with a date code below. On the bottom there is also an AK as shown. Along the rim of the goblet there is once again an AK and another mark that I guess could be the same mark oriented differently but I’m not sure.

I cannot find any other marks on the piece.

My question is whether this is in fact an authentic 18th century piece?

[dognose]

Hi,

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[Yacorie13]

I thought I had done it correctly based on previews - sorry about that - let me try to do this again

[Yacorie13]

Try again. Hopefully these work and i'll add some others. The four photos below show the overall chalice, the marks on the bottom of the stem (AK and st george), the marks on the edge of the cup (AK and I'm not sure) and then another mark on the edge of the cup that looks like a JS of similar.

[Yacorie13]

here are four more pictures of the sides of the chalice cup. I was told these could be saints or could be Sofia Tsarvna and her brothers Peter and Ivan

[Mart]

Hello!
The assay mark is "AK".
This combination of brands was used in Moscow in the first half of the 1750s. Wait for other opinions on the authenticity of the product. Good luck!

[Yacorie13]

Hello!
The assay mark is "AK".
This combination of brands was used in Moscow in the first half of the 1750s. Wait for other opinions on the authenticity of the product. Good luck!

Thank you Mart -

Hoping someone can provide additional information on mark authenticity along with who the figures may represent

[Juke*]

Hi!

There are some issues with the object itself and the markings:

1) Always when there are royalties related to the object it is a question mark. The pictures are depicting 'Peter the Great (1682-1725)' and 'Catherine the Great (1729-1796)' with the royal crowns. The object is for sure old and in the rococo style for the period of mid 18th century.

2) There is an oddity with the Moscow town mark with they year mark ?45? which don't make sense. It could be ??45 but then the position is wrong which would also be odd. AK could be the assayer A.Kuzmin (1741-52). With the markings I am missing also the silver content mark.

Thereby I am not confident of the authenticity.

Regards,
Juke

[Yacorie13]

Thank you for the response. The lack of a purity mark was definitely something that confused me when I was trying to figure out what this might be. I have to admit that adding a purity mark seems like it would be easy if you’re trying to “deceive” someone. Did they all have purity marks?

Your opinion about the date code under the Moscow mark - I agree with. The number before the 5 - definitely appears to look more like a 4 then a 7.

Any idea what the mark that looks like a JS might be?

Lastly - if the marks aren’t correct - is the chalice likely a fake altogether? Or more likely a period piece that someone tried to deceive the maker?

[Juke*]

Silver objects needed to have the purity mark (72/74 and later 84) which was tested by the assayer to ensure there where no frauds with the content and selling these objects. If the content was not achieved the object was not marked as silver. It is not the first time 'deceivers' don't get the markings right and actually this way is quite typical.

The JS would be the silversmith. As it is in Latin is also disturbing as more or less there where no western silversmiths working in the mid 18th century in the Russian guild which was the only one in Moscow.

Everything is of course possible. However due to the oddities I tend to think it is a Historicism object from the late 19th century. Even the use of a royal motive leans me thinking to that period.

[Juke*]

An addition: the 18th century silver can also be without the content mark (72, 74 and 84) as well. Anyway I still lean towards a later object.

[Qrt.S]

It is an indeed strange object with "odd" markings. Try to polish it and see what happens. In my opinion it should polished shine like the full moon, if it is silver at all. Anyway, in those days the silver marking procedures in Russia were nicely said often rather "incomplete". Moreover, the JS-mark also bothers me (a Latin S ???) as well as the the punch on the rim right side of AK (What is it?).
Moscow town mark in a rectangular shield appears with 5 only in 1751. I'm not either aware of any assayer in Tiflis punching AK, except for an A. Karpinsky 1823-1829 P #3614 (?). Difficult case anyway...

[Yacorie13]

Thank you both for your comments and responses. I’m not questioning what you are saying just offering questions in general because i know nothing about it.

I will polish it and see how it looks polished.

The mark next to the AK on the rim also appears to be St. George on a horse but it’s stamped sideways and not up and down. At first I thought it was a wolf.

It always seem strange to me that someone faking stuff would go through the effort and then screw up the stamps. Obviously you see it all the time but that seems like it would have been the easy part

[Mart]

Moscow stamps are from the period as I wrote earlier. Before 1798, silver hallmarks were not required. In the 18th century, silver hallmark numbers are very, very rare and they had a very different shape than in the 19th century. I think there is no reason to think that there is a “JS” stamp there. If you turn it around, you can see quite Russian letters there, for example, “БГ”, etc. Tiflis cannot have anything to do with this product. I'm guessing that the marks are more correct than not.

[Qrt.S]

Indeed there is a point in Mart's input (nice doing Mart!). I managed to find a Master in Moscow punching like this "БГ" 1746-1752. He is Борис Гаврилов (Boris Gavrilov), active 1746-1752. Is it him or not, is a good question...

But, who is the assayer if his punch is AK? Anisim Kuzmin? (He was active around 1741-52). Number 5 can be found in 1752....but but ...?

[Mart]

I don't really understand why you have so many questions about the brand "AK"? This is the brand of Anisim Kuzmin. It was during his work that the object was made. What are the doubts?

[Qrt.S]

@Mart
It is a question of understanding but also doubts.
Nothing is carved in stone regarding old Russian silver. In addition no one (neither you nor me..) knows it all with 100% certainty. You know that very well! In addition, the assayer is less interesting than the maker. He is only an official. More interesting is the question that is the maker Boris Gavrilov or who? Forget Kuzmin and analyze my suggestion regarding the maker. Not much is known about him, but you made a good point. Do you know more? If so I would much appreciate if you told it. Moreover, you have asked for opinions, you got some. What's the problem?

I'm still wondering what is the mark on the RIGHT SIDE of the AK mark. The left side's mark is quite likely Moscow's town mark, but the year?

[Yacorie13]

@Mart
It is a question of understanding but also doubts.
Nothing is carved in stone regarding old Russian silver. In addition no one (neither you nor me..) knows it all with 100% certainty. You know that very well! In addition, the assayer is less interesting than the maker. He is only an official. More interesting is the question that is the maker Boris Gavrilov or who? Forget Kuzmin and analyze my suggestion regarding the maker. Not much is known about him, but you made a good point. Do you know more? If so I would much appreciate if you told it. Moreover, you have asked for opinions, you got some. What's the problem?

I'm still wondering what is the mark on the RIGHT SIDE of the AK mark. The left side's mark is quite likely Moscow's town mark, but the year?

Thank you both for you input - great learning for me and pointing me in the direction of more research.

Are you talking about the mark to the right of the AK on the cup itself? To me it looks like a sideway stamped Moscow stamp - but your question about where is the year is a good one.

Let me ask another general question. Why would people fake marks but not fake them completely? For example - why create a fake mark and not complete it? I know nothing about Russian silver but if I was going to try and make a deceptive mark - I would do it all the way and not leave something off which would be an instant red flag.

I would think having a piece perfectly marked with no issues would be rarer than having a piece with wear and some issues?

Just trying to learn and coming at this from nothing more than my own thoughts and what seem like common sense to me if I was trying to make a fake

[Qrt.S]

My pleasure,
Yes on the right side. The side way mark on the left is Moscow. Moreover, fakers do not bother to investigate enough of what marks were used, how and when. If fakers would investigate deeply it becomes too costly and eats their "profit". This is actually the point because most of the people do not know enough of silver marks in general. You mention it yourself, see below. As long as there are some kind of marks on an object it is "good enough", but what marks is of less meaning. Not talk about what the marks tell and where they are on an object.

I know nothing about Russian silver

Take my advise and read this. It is not a complete story, but it will help you to better understand imperial Russian silver marks.
https://www.925-1000.com/Frussia.html
Feel free to ask more...

[Yacorie13]

I have read that page - thank you. I've tried to read a lot of webpages and old threads etc to figure it out before I posted here. Generally I don't know anything about it but love researching all kinds of items I come across - this one happens to be russian silver.

I'm happy to take additional photos of anything people want to see or would be helpful. I must admit I'm still not sure I am following what mark you are referring to when you say to the Right of the AK.