Anchor/Lion Passant-Same set-different marks?

[crigger]

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa23 ... CN7267.jpg
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa23 ... CN7037.jpg
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa23 ... CN7048.jpg
(admin photo edit - images too large - insert as link only - see Posting Requirements)
Hi, Hope someone can help me identify these items (Chocotlate pot?/creamer?)
The larger pot has the Lion passant mark, and the smaller the anchor-I was thinking silverplate-but I can't find anything but silver with these marks. Does anyone have any ideas as to date-Does anchor indicate Birmingham? Why do they have different marks? I'm clueless, and have been searching for over 4 years for info. I would appreciate your help very much. Thanks!

[byron mac donald]

Hey Crigger-
I am just learning, but as I see it, your items appear to have copper showing thru the what appears silver plating. Many makers incorporated the lion as part of thier mark. Also see "pseudomarks" description here in the silver glossary. Glossary can be found from the home page. top bar under "Resources" well worth your time looking thru.

http://www.925-1000.com/silverglossary3.html

Regards- Byron

[crigger]

Thanks Byron!
I had been thinking lately,(after long and fruitless searching) maybe "fake marks", since the Lion passant was on the pot, and you're right, it does look like copper underneath. I didn't realize the lion passant was used as a mark unless it was silver. You're link helped. No wonder the marks make no sense at all! I'd been looking (hours and hours and days and days) over the years at examples of real marks.
I wonder if there's a history of puesdomarks somewhere? I'd still like to know when it was made. I guess old or new forgery it doesn't make sense to want to know, but like my yankee husband jokes - southern women may be smart in some ways, but common sense? Forget about it!
Of course, I tend to look at it as "not giving up".
Again, thanks for your help, and I guess what really matters is I like the looks of the pots. They are cute aren't they?

[crigger]

Byron,
After reading your post, I decided that reading the history of silver and silverplate might help, rather than hopelessly looking for the marks on my pots. I came across something I was wondering if you could help me understand. Old Sheffield, the real stuff, was only made about a hundred years or so before electroplating came along. I read in three different articles that one way to tell the real thing from a newer reproduction was that old sheffield pieces of holloware would have a definite seam where it was put together. My pots do have seams, and are a dull leaden color inside, where you can still see the design of the fruits, nuts, and berries.
I also saw on Abe Silverman's site a sugar spoon that had the same design and was Old Sheffield. Did any other companies imitate the qualities of Old Sheffield or try to pass their wares off as the "real thing"- seams and all?
(Probably the case of a little knowledge in the hands of a newbie is laughable), but I would appreciate your input. Thanks, Crigger

[byron mac donald]

Good morning Crigger-

From one newbie to another, I just dont know. The marks on yours almost looks like "Gorham 1886" but some how just not right. You got my curiosity up on "sheffield plate" so I to read a few articles on it, however I do not see why you are considering it to be Sheffield, it is not marked as such is it?
Interesting articles anyway. The way I see it the difference between the two is that "Sheffield" is plated onto the base metal prior to the item being formed. Electroplating on the other hand is the item being made form the base metal and then being plated. Sheffield plating is still being made on items of high usage, because higher durability.
The article I am refering to also states the way to tell the difference is to check the soldered joints, to see if they were plated prior to soldering. Not sure how you would do this though. "Unless" they are refering the solder itself being of pure silver where no base metal can be seen in the weld, this would make since, but you have to get past the plating material to see.
Well, here is just one the the articles I read this morn,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheffield_plate

perhaps someone here with a lot more knowledge, may explain it to the both of us.

Hope it gets figured out for you- Byron

[Escafeldia]

Sheffield Plate was made by rolling a copper ingot and a silver ingots together to give either a single silver coat or what was a sandwich of copper between two layers of silver. The article being manufactured was then made from this sandwich. Many marks on Old Sheffield Plate somwhat resemble silver marks as they do on some electroplated wares from about 1860. In the later 18th century restrictions were put on the type of marks which could be used on Sheffield Plate and which were registered. Old Plate wares after 1784 had to include the makers full name although they could also have some other pictorial mark or sign included. This link will give you some extra information on both Sheffield Plate and Electroplated wares. http://freespace.virgin.net/a.data/sheffplate.htm