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Hy all,
Is there anyone that can tell me more about the silversmith of this sterling champagne ice bucket? The edge of the pedestal is engraved "sterling" and the hallmarks are impressed under the base, I was wondering how to be able to say with certainty when an artifact is in molten silver, how can I understand it? without a doubt here I will find the answer to this question that is racking my brains, since you are always enlightening and super connoisseurs of this rare subject, could you help me?
The total weight is 1125 g.
::::: Are all the details (like the cluster of grapes) stamped into the sides of the champagne bucket? Or, are the insides of the champagne bucket flat and smooth? I'm just wondering if those details are "stamped" into the sides or has the bucket been "cast" out of a mold. ::::::
::::: There are many American Arts & Crafts silversmiths who haven't been accounted for ::::::
Aguest wrote: ↑Mon Apr 03, 2023 11:48 am
::::: Are all the details (like the cluster of grapes) stamped into the sides of the champagne bucket? Or, are the insides of the champagne bucket flat and smooth? I'm just wondering if those details are "stamped" into the sides or has the bucket been "cast" out of a mold. ::::::
::::: There are many American Arts & Crafts silversmiths who haven't been accounted for ::::::
Dear Aguest, I thought they were embossed on the surface, as per the image of the inside, but you think it's a mold instead, how the details coulb be stamped on the sides of the bucket??
Morevoer, the style, the "tonnage", made me think it could be English... do you thik is American from the fist half of the XX century or at least the end of the XIX?
::::: The style did remind me of English pieces that have been "victorianized" where the sides of older silver pieces was "stamped out" with designs, you see it on cups and tankards and even serving spoons that are stamped with designs of pineapples and clusters of grapes. ::::
::::: This champagne bucket looks different, although it is imitating that "victorianized" style, now that I see the pictures of the insides of the champagne bucket, it does look like a mold was used to create the piece, those individual details do not look stamped to my eyes at least. :::::
::::: The font of that "Sterling" hallmark is often seen on Native American silver, so I have to think about that too. ::::
::::: Best guess is Mexico 1950s but it was made such that it could pass for being made in Germany or even a NYC Modernist maker. :::::
::::: I've seen champagne buckets & huge punch bowls from Mexico 1950s/1960s and that's my best guess ::::::
It looks as though the new marks could have been impressed over areas where older original marks may have been. This might suggest copying of an older piece of a different standard with marks applied for the current fineness. Does anyone know more about “re-casting” methods? Meanwhile, I’d suggest taking a closer look at the surface irregularities/impurities to see if this was a reproduction that was well polished to remove flaws from the process. How are the handles attached here? Do any seam lines show at any point? Bubbles, pebbling, or other surface oddities? Detail losses in some spots?
::::: I didn't look at that close enough, but it looks like you're right, it does look like original marks have been overstamped + I did happen to find a similar champagne bucket marked "900" which I'm still not quite sure where that is from, best guess would be Peru, so the silver fineness on this piece could very well be 900 silver ::::: That "Sterling" hallmark that has a font similar to Native American pieces does almost look as if it were added later, there's something a little sloppy and imprecise about that hallmark, and why wouldn't it be stamped on the bottom instead of on the outside of the rim of the base? :::::
::::: I almost think I see an erased "Federal Eagle" hallmark to the right of the "925" number but I that could be a pixellation artifact or a brain-error. ::::
The incuse JBA and 925 are definitely punched over existing incised marks.
The handles are stylistically too heavy and poorly integrated into the design. Compare the carefully raised/engraved acanthus leaves (likely the only original decoration) on the base with those above, which are inferior in understanding and execution. I believe this is an older, pre-STERLING piece that has been extensively "modernized' and remarked to meet retail standards.
From the USPTO
Word Mark JBA
Goods and Services (CANCELLED) IC 035. US 100 101 102. G & S: Business brokerage services, namely, arranging for the purchase and resale of used and unused jewelry, diamonds, gemstones, vintage timepieces and precious metals for others. FIRST USE: 20070515. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 20070515
Standard Characters Claimed
Mark Drawing Code (4) STANDARD CHARACTER MARK
Serial Number 85958078
Filing Date June 12, 2013
Current Basis 1A
Original Filing Basis 1A
Published for Opposition February 25, 2014
Registration Number 4528306
Registration Date May 13, 2014
Owner (REGISTRANT) David Friedman INDIVIDUAL UNITED STATES 11 Regent Drive Lawrence NEW YORK 11559
Attorney of Record Bernard Malina
Type of Mark SERVICE MARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Live/Dead Indicator DEAD
Cancellation Date December 18, 2020
I don’t have a strong inclination that this company belongs in the mix, but it was out there and may have been loosely connected with a piece like yours, so I thought it should be added for as much as it may be worth.
@Aguset, @Traintime, @Wev, @Silverly, Thanks to all for the suggestions and the different observation perspectives of the piece, very useful for understanding it better and more. as Aguest says, I also believe that the idea was that of victorianisation of an artifact and that it could very well have been produced or reproduced in America, be it Mexico or North America as Silverly suggested, but I wonder how it is possible that the details were printed on the bucket? Could someone help me understand the procedure? I don't see any sign of welding or evidence of stylistic inconsistency such as to justify such a large gap between the bucket and the handles and the pedestal that will undoubtedly have been added later, and about the decoration of the pedestal, it is really that far from that of the chiselled ornate on the sides of the bucket?
I am also of the opinion that it was subsequently re-punched with other marks over the old, current and recognized, probably to be placed on the market, this very baroque-Victorian-tacky taste is very popular for an aesthete and very material clientele.
but my question still remains the same, how is it possible that the details have been stamped??with the term "stamped" do you mean a cast, a mold into which the incandescent material is "poured"? it seems to me a process for mass-producing worthless Chinese toys .... I do not want the Chinese toys....
::::: If you search for "English Berry Spoons" you can find many examples of serving spoons from the 18th century that were put into a steam-powered (later electrical-powered) machine at some point between 1860-1890 and a design of grape clusters & pineapples & strawberries was then "STAMPED" on the bowl of that 18th century spoon, effectively "victorianizing" the spoon (that is the phrase my silver-collecting friend used to use RIP friend) and that is what I mean by "STAMPED" & you will even see tankards from the 18th century that have "STAMPED" details on them (flowers and swooshes mainly) so even tankards did not escape the stamping machines that the Victorians used to bring all that old-fashioned plain silver into the new style of flowers and swooshes and strawberries and pineapples and grape clusters. :::::
::::: I think your champagne bucket has details that are not stamped but instead seem to have been manufactured using a cast method so I just wanted to check that detail because it adds more evidence to the 20th century manufacturing date, probably mid-20th century, as for the base and the handles I really lack the expertise to comment on those details, but the "Sterling" hallmark I have seen hundreds of times in that particular font and it is almost always found on Native American silver jewelry so my best guess is that someone got a hold of this champagne bucket which was manufactured in the mid-20th century somewhere in Mexico or maybe Peru and then put the "Sterling" hallmark on there and put the "JBA 925" hallmarks on there as well. ::::
::::: I see how this is confusing because sometimes people will talk about hallmarks that are "STAMPED" but they really just mean "A HALLMARK WAS APPLIED" so the process of applying a hallmark is sometimes just called "STAMPING" the hallmark but that's not what I'm talking about with these Victorianized silver spoons that have had fruits like pineapples and strawberries and grape clusters impressed into the 18th century spoon by a machine :::::
Aguest wrote: ↑Wed Apr 05, 2023 7:02 pm
::::: If you search for "English Berry Spoons" you can find many examples of serving spoons from the 18th century that were put into a steam-powered (later electrical-powered) machine at some point between 1860-1890 and a design of grape clusters & pineapples & strawberries was then "STAMPED" on the bowl of that 18th century spoon, effectively "victorianizing" the spoon (that is the phrase my silver-collecting friend used to use RIP friend) and that is what I mean by "STAMPED" & you will even see tankards from the 18th century that have "STAMPED" details on them (flowers and swooshes mainly) so even tankards did not escape the stamping machines that the Victorians used to bring all that old-fashioned plain silver into the new style of flowers and swooshes and strawberries and pineapples and grape clusters. :::::
::::: I think your champagne bucket has details that are not stamped but instead seem to have been manufactured using a cast method so I just wanted to check that detail because it adds more evidence to the 20th century manufacturing date, probably mid-20th century, as for the base and the handles I really lack the expertise to comment on those details, but the "Sterling" hallmark I have seen hundreds of times in that particular font and it is almost always found on Native American silver jewelry so my best guess is that someone got a hold of this champagne bucket which was manufactured in the mid-20th century somewhere in Mexico or maybe Peru and then put the "Sterling" hallmark on there and put the "JBA 925" hallmarks on there as well. ::::
::::: I see how this is confusing because sometimes people will talk about hallmarks that are "STAMPED" but they really just mean "A HALLMARK WAS APPLIED" so the process of applying a hallmark is sometimes just called "STAMPING" the hallmark but that's not what I'm talking about with these Victorianized silver spoons that have had fruits like pineapples and strawberries and grape clusters impressed into the 18th century spoon by a machine :::::
Dear Aguest WOW!!! even if with all this information you have launched my brain and my curiosity into a tunnel that is still very dark, you have given me a lot of new elements to reflect on and which I ignored and ignore. Could you explain to me, just as if I were a student in school who has to learn a new lesson, better this thing of the 19th century printing process (1860-1890 you said) of decorative elements typical of the Victorian era, and that of fusion? By fusion I am thinking of a mould, a mold, which is filled with metal, and which will then be roughed out and chiseled later. I really can't understand the molding process, how is it possible to print elements in relief, or embossed, on a convex surface such as that of a teaspoon??!!! I can't understand the process!
Browse the nett, visit a silversmith's workshop, during the industrial revolution, handicrafts and various silver decorative techniques were taken over by machines.
Dear Peter, I agree with you, visiting the laboratory of a silversmith or a goldsmith should be mandatory for anyone wishing to approach the subject and increase their knowledge about it, but 1) the real goldsmiths of the past are white flies, you need to be able to get to know them and make them open the doors to their world and their unspoken wealth of knowledge and 2) you must be able to do all this by fitting it into everyday life and all the commitments that make it up, which is not easy at all, therefore often and willingly the web, research on texts and now on the web (but the serious one) are valid and accessible tools anytime and anywhere.
Thanks a lot for the links, really appreciated, I'll divore them in reading
Late to this thread, but with little time available at the moment, will only say that I doubt American origin, and with the overstamping and the modern look of the the punches, as well as a quick online search finding the same 'JBA' paired with '800', '900' and '925' on items seemingly unrelated in other ways, would guess that Silverly has likely found the source of the trademark. Suspect remarking for resale, the reason a mystery to me - a bit more research finds David Friedman running a firm called 'Jewelry Buyers of America', exhibiting at various jewelry shows, last mention I found was in 2019, fitting in with the 2020 cancellation of the trademark.
Got online reference to David Friedman as diamond dealer at 30 W. 47th in diamond district area. I. Friedman & Son formed in 1922 seems close by, but no specific connection seen (check NY Post article on some family issues from 2015).
