Minsk, late 18th century

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amena
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Minsk, late 18th century

Post by amena »

Up for auction is this tray, classified from the end of the 18th century.(!?)
Image
What does the number 76 next to the kokoshnik represent?
Thanks for attention
Amena
Juke*
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Re: Minsk, late 18th century

Post by Juke* »

The original marks are very worn so from the picture it is difficult to say what they are. The tray has then been control marked by the assayer in St.Petersburg in the beginning of the 20th century. The '76' mark is the silver content which has at the same time been measured.
Mart
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Re: Minsk, late 18th century

Post by Mart »

It's the first time I've seen the label "ЛПУ". I can only assume that it means "Leningrad Assay Office" (Ленинградское Пробирное Управление). If so, then these three hallmarks were made in 1924-1927.
About Minsk. Almost the entire 18th century Minsk was not part of Russia (until 1793). There could not be a system of Russian branding.
I have no reason to consider this product made in the 18th century. I know several Belarusian jewelers of those years, but it is difficult to see their initials (as mentioned earlier) from these photographs. It is difficult to understand why this product is labeled as Minsk.
I think it is necessary to look whether this item corresponds to the 18th century.
Qrt.S
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Re: Minsk, late 18th century

Post by Qrt.S »

If the mark 76 is supposed to tell the fineness, it is illegal because as from 1798 minimum fineness is 84 zol. The marks could be some kind of remarking, but the fineness??? Mind my asking but where is the Minsk mark on the object. It is written in the headline, but is there a mark on the object showing Minsk? I have never seen this "ЛПУ" mark.
Mart
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Re: Minsk, late 18th century

Post by Mart »

The "76" silver sample (equivalent to about 800) is one of the official samples in Russia of 1922-1927.
Qrt.S
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Re: Minsk, late 18th century

Post by Qrt.S »

@Mart,
Interesting, would you mind tell or show me when and in what assay charter that was demanded. To my understanding the assay charter of 1896 was the only law obeyed up to 1927. However, minor technical changes were made in 1908. The kokshnik changed to look right and some juridical changes etc. were made because the first left looking kokshnik was a disaster (more or less). The technical procedure remined, anyway, the same. I have never seen an oval right looking kokshnik on silver with the value of 76 zol. The fineness was included in the oval mark. I would appreciate if you could show me a right looking kokoshnik mark with the silver value of 76 zol. The 800 promille value was implemented 23. July 1927 and the mark is the worker's head with value in promille (800 or more) and not anymore in zolotniks. I tried to find something in Troepolskaya too, but found nothing supporting this 76 zol. claim....I must have missed something!

Thank you in advance.

PS. What do you refer to with the year 1922. What happened in that year regarding this?
Mart
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Re: Minsk, late 18th century

Post by Mart »

Good. In 1922, samples for silver were determined: 76, 84, 88,91,95.
Image
Mart
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Re: Minsk, late 18th century

Post by Mart »

Good. In 1922, samples for silver were determined: 76, 84, 88,91,95.
Image
Qrt.S
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Re: Minsk, late 18th century

Post by Qrt.S »

@Mart

Thanks Mart, your picture is good evidence. However, there is not a single word about this in Troepolskaya (or other books I know of). There is 72 mentioned in many places but not a word regarding 76...interesting! Therefore I started to wonder???? OK, case clear.
But!
There is no assay charter from 1922!!!! Or is there?
Dad
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Re: Minsk, late 18th century

Post by Dad »

Qrt.S wrote: Sat Mar 11, 2023 12:05 pm @Mart,
Interesting, would you mind tell or show me when and in what assay charter that was demanded. To my understanding the assay charter of 1896 was the only law obeyed up to 1927. However, minor technical changes were made in 1908. The kokshnik changed to look right and some juridical changes etc. were made because the first left looking kokshnik was a disaster (more or less). The technical procedure remined, anyway, the same. I have never seen an oval right looking kokshnik on silver with the value of 76 zol. The fineness was included in the oval mark. I would appreciate if you could show me a right looking kokoshnik mark with the silver value of 76 zol. The 800 promille value was implemented 23. July 1927 and the mark is the worker's head with value in promille (800 or more) and not anymore in zolotniks. I tried to find something in Troepolskaya too, but found nothing supporting this 76 zol. claim....I must have missed something!

Thank you in advance.

PS. What do you refer to with the year 1922. What happened in that year regarding this?
Dear Qrt.S. Hi.
This forum is a good source of knowledge. Use the function "search". Or, Can be recorded in a notepad.
Dad wrote: Sat Jan 18, 2020 3:45 pm Hi
This thinness (76 zolotnik ) begin used according to the Decree of 3 July 1922 from All-Russian Central Executive Committee of People Commissars Council of the RSFSR.
In 1927 in USSR begin used metric system. 76 zolotnik transformed to 800 metric.
https://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopi ... 76#p173725
Qrt.S
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Re: Minsk, late 18th century

Post by Qrt.S »

Thanks Dad,
Unfortunately I'm not aware of this decree of 1922. In the sources I have available is a jump from 1908 to 1927 and nothing in between. Nothing in Postnikova #148-9 connected to 1922 either. Interesting, could you give a link to the mentioned charter, thank you. (There is no link in the linked thread). Moreover, what was written here almost a decade ago is too much to remember for me, sorry my good man.
Anyway an interesting ongoing discussion.
Dad
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Re: Minsk, late 18th century

Post by Dad »

Qrt.S wrote: Sun Mar 12, 2023 3:50 am ... could you give a link to the mentioned charter, thank you.
You are welkome: http://docs.historyrussia.org/ru/nodes/ ... lya-1922-g
Qrt.S
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Re: Minsk, late 18th century

Post by Qrt.S »

Thank you, I appreciate it. I shall see into it later today.
Dad
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Re: Minsk, late 18th century

Post by Dad »

Qrt.S wrote: Sun Mar 12, 2023 7:14 am Thank you, I appreciate it. I shall see into it later today.
As you wish. Even though never ...))
amena
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Re: Minsk, late 18th century

Post by amena »

Thanks to everyone who contributed.
I learned a lot from this discussion.
Best regards
Amena
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