snuff box
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84zolotnik
- Posts: 22
- Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2022 7:49 am
Re: snuff box
Hi,
Welcome to the Forum.
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Welcome to the Forum.
Your question cannot be answered without the required images.
https://postimages.org (choose 'Share', then copy the 'Hotlink for forums' code) is recommended. Do not use Photobucket or Dropbox.
Ensure your images are embedded. Do not post links. Remember to use the 'Preview' button before submitting your post.
For more information see:
http://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic ... 82#p103282
Give some time to creating your posts and we'll give some time to researching and answering them.
Re: snuff box
Hi, welcome to the forum.
Your image embedded;
Crowned V in triangle; Dutch import duty Mark used 1893-1905.
See:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=32028
Peter.
Your image embedded;
Crowned V in triangle; Dutch import duty Mark used 1893-1905.
See:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=32028
Peter.
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84zolotnik
- Posts: 22
- Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2022 7:49 am
Re: snuff box
Thanks. I think the crowned V is a mid-18th century Parisian mark. Not Dutch.
Re: snuff box
No. Nothing about this object is French 18thC.
You have a silver standard mark in an octagonal reserve, and a maker’s mark in a lozenge-shaped reserve, both after 1838. Furthermore, an 18thC date mark would not be in a triangular-shaped reserve. And finally, the style of the box is not 18thC.
You have a silver standard mark in an octagonal reserve, and a maker’s mark in a lozenge-shaped reserve, both after 1838. Furthermore, an 18thC date mark would not be in a triangular-shaped reserve. And finally, the style of the box is not 18thC.
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84zolotnik
- Posts: 22
- Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2022 7:49 am
Re: snuff box
You are wrong about that. These are marks from 1809 to 1819.
Re: snuff box
If you say so. Your photos are so out of focus it is hard to tell.
In any case, not 18th C marks.
Regards.
In any case, not 18th C marks.
Regards.
Re: snuff box
1809 until 1819 cannot be mistaken, 1819 to 1838 either.
Show us the mark,please.
Regards
Show us the mark,please.
Regards
Re: snuff box
Although the images are less than ideal, the marks do appear to be those for second standard (.800) silver of the French provinces, 1809-1819. There will be a number (or letter) on the helmet of the male profile in the guarantee mark (in the inset photo of your image, lower right) above the "E" maker's mark. You will need to read that number/letter to identify the assay office and, with any luck, the maker.
The crowned "V" is unquestionably the Dutch duty mark oel has shown. There were over 100 French provincial assay offices active during the Empire, including some in territories that are now part of Belgium, Italy, the Netherlands, Switzerland, Germany and Luxembourg. I mention this because the Dutch "V" duty mark was used on items marked in the Netherlands during the French occupation, as those marks were invalidated by the new Dutch government after the fall of the Empire. So there is a good chance that this snuffbox is actually Dutch even though the marks are French.
The crowned "V" is unquestionably the Dutch duty mark oel has shown. There were over 100 French provincial assay offices active during the Empire, including some in territories that are now part of Belgium, Italy, the Netherlands, Switzerland, Germany and Luxembourg. I mention this because the Dutch "V" duty mark was used on items marked in the Netherlands during the French occupation, as those marks were invalidated by the new Dutch government after the fall of the Empire. So there is a good chance that this snuffbox is actually Dutch even though the marks are French.
Re: snuff box
Yes, Blakstone is absolutely right.
The 1893 Duty marks. For imports Large and Small
This particularly type of crowned V in triangle was intended for large imported objects only. This mark was sometimes mistakenly used on old objects of national origin. It gives no guarantee of standard of fineness. Used 1893-1905
The Netherlands were part of the French Empire during 1810- end 1813-early 1814.
Late 1811-early 1812 French provincial assay office departments were opened in the Netherlands and new maker’s mark were introduced complying with the French lozenge shape. The law said that the maker’s mark for gold and silver work shall contain the initials of the maker and a symbol and shall invariably have a lozenge shape.
The French assay office identification in the Netherlands; the department numbers of 1804 were used as office identifications. The alphabet was used for the departments which were created later. When several assay offices were established in a single department, a dot was added for the second office and two dots for the third
For example the French regional assay office department in Amsterdam applied a guarantee/office mark medium large silver "male with helmet facing right" with regional assay office letter M in his helmet. Rotterdam the letter N and The Hague the letter N•, Breda number 70•, Maastricht number 65 and Roermond number 65•, Leeuwarden the letter S, Groningen the letter Q, Zwolle the letter P, Arnhem letter O, Utrecht the letter M•, Middelburg the letter K and Gent (Gand) the number 28.
NB.Office mark large silver items departments "male head facing left" with rao letter/number in the double circular ring. Office mark always in combination with standard mark for silver, the French rooster walking to the right in double oval for silver 950/000 or walking to the left in a geometric frame-shape for silver 800/000.
Year1813 Napoleon’s defeat at Leipzig.
By order 7th December 1813 the French marks may not be used anymore. However by order 23rd December 1813 and signed by the Sovereign Prince Willem I on 26th December; the French hallmarking law of 19 Brumaire year 6 is to be maintained, with a change of standards of fineness and marks. The French Empire hallmarks remain valid and those of the Kingdom of Holland are declared to be valid again. At the end of January 1814 all new punches of the Kingdom of the Netherlands are available and that the new maker’s mark must henceforward be perfectly square. Maker’s mark of the French type may remain in use until worn out. After many complaints from smallworkers in September 1817 the rectangular maker’s mark was introduced.
Year 1816 Invalidation of the Kingdom of Holland marks and those of the French regime. Until September 9th 1816 objects with these invalidated marks may be marked tax free with the foreign (duty) mark.
Crowned V for large items; duty mark for foreign and other untaxed objects used 1814-1893. This duty mark does not give any guarantee of a precious metal standard of fineness. This mark has been used on metal with a 250 minimum silver content as a duty mark. This mark was destined for all imported, unmarked and invalid marked objects of foreign, national and unknown origin. Upon the invalidation of the hallmarks of Louis Napoleon's kingdom of Holland and those of the French Empire in 1816, this mark also has been used as a tax free census mark.
The small flowery like V used 1814-1831 but also used in the Southern Netherlands from 1817 until 1832 after the Belgian revolution replaced by the Boars head.
As said we need better clear enhanced image of all marks. The maker’s mark to me appears the capital letter E with sheriff under a symbol in lozenge. If a Dutch maker’s mark we have a few candidates. If the symbol is a foot for: widow Elias Voet, registered in Haarlem, this particular mark used 1812 till around 1825. If the symbol is an anchor for: Pieter Adriaan Joseph van Eesbeeck, registered in Amsterdam, this particular mark used 1812-1820. If the symbol is an insect/spider for; Jacob Andreas Ebersbach, registered in Amsterdam, this particular mark used 1813-1827.
Peter
Source; Netherlands Responsibility Marks from 1797 edition 2009 part I and part II uitgave WaarborgHolland Gouda
The 1893 Duty marks. For imports Large and Small
This particularly type of crowned V in triangle was intended for large imported objects only. This mark was sometimes mistakenly used on old objects of national origin. It gives no guarantee of standard of fineness. Used 1893-1905
The Netherlands were part of the French Empire during 1810- end 1813-early 1814.
Late 1811-early 1812 French provincial assay office departments were opened in the Netherlands and new maker’s mark were introduced complying with the French lozenge shape. The law said that the maker’s mark for gold and silver work shall contain the initials of the maker and a symbol and shall invariably have a lozenge shape.
The French assay office identification in the Netherlands; the department numbers of 1804 were used as office identifications. The alphabet was used for the departments which were created later. When several assay offices were established in a single department, a dot was added for the second office and two dots for the third
For example the French regional assay office department in Amsterdam applied a guarantee/office mark medium large silver "male with helmet facing right" with regional assay office letter M in his helmet. Rotterdam the letter N and The Hague the letter N•, Breda number 70•, Maastricht number 65 and Roermond number 65•, Leeuwarden the letter S, Groningen the letter Q, Zwolle the letter P, Arnhem letter O, Utrecht the letter M•, Middelburg the letter K and Gent (Gand) the number 28.
NB.Office mark large silver items departments "male head facing left" with rao letter/number in the double circular ring. Office mark always in combination with standard mark for silver, the French rooster walking to the right in double oval for silver 950/000 or walking to the left in a geometric frame-shape for silver 800/000.
Year1813 Napoleon’s defeat at Leipzig.
By order 7th December 1813 the French marks may not be used anymore. However by order 23rd December 1813 and signed by the Sovereign Prince Willem I on 26th December; the French hallmarking law of 19 Brumaire year 6 is to be maintained, with a change of standards of fineness and marks. The French Empire hallmarks remain valid and those of the Kingdom of Holland are declared to be valid again. At the end of January 1814 all new punches of the Kingdom of the Netherlands are available and that the new maker’s mark must henceforward be perfectly square. Maker’s mark of the French type may remain in use until worn out. After many complaints from smallworkers in September 1817 the rectangular maker’s mark was introduced.
Year 1816 Invalidation of the Kingdom of Holland marks and those of the French regime. Until September 9th 1816 objects with these invalidated marks may be marked tax free with the foreign (duty) mark.
Crowned V for large items; duty mark for foreign and other untaxed objects used 1814-1893. This duty mark does not give any guarantee of a precious metal standard of fineness. This mark has been used on metal with a 250 minimum silver content as a duty mark. This mark was destined for all imported, unmarked and invalid marked objects of foreign, national and unknown origin. Upon the invalidation of the hallmarks of Louis Napoleon's kingdom of Holland and those of the French Empire in 1816, this mark also has been used as a tax free census mark.
The small flowery like V used 1814-1831 but also used in the Southern Netherlands from 1817 until 1832 after the Belgian revolution replaced by the Boars head.
As said we need better clear enhanced image of all marks. The maker’s mark to me appears the capital letter E with sheriff under a symbol in lozenge. If a Dutch maker’s mark we have a few candidates. If the symbol is a foot for: widow Elias Voet, registered in Haarlem, this particular mark used 1812 till around 1825. If the symbol is an anchor for: Pieter Adriaan Joseph van Eesbeeck, registered in Amsterdam, this particular mark used 1812-1820. If the symbol is an insect/spider for; Jacob Andreas Ebersbach, registered in Amsterdam, this particular mark used 1813-1827.
Peter
Source; Netherlands Responsibility Marks from 1797 edition 2009 part I and part II uitgave WaarborgHolland Gouda