Help identifying hallmark on fork - P.H.

[cfauvel]

I found most of my ancestors' silverware makers but a few escape me.

Here is one that has a P and H, and something else which I have no clue as to what they are.

Hope someone can help

[cfauvel]

sorry but I must not have posted the IMG tag correctly.

I'd be glad to delete the post and try again or Edit the posy but I can't do either.

trying a different way to post an image

[blakstone]

The maker is Pierre Rene Thomas Hellaine (see Arminjon I:2970). I think this must be a rather rare mark, since it was registered on 19 Mar 1808 and cancelled seventeen months later on 1 Sep 1809, by which time Hellaine had died. I have found very little information on him, though his widow, Lousie Adelaide Marie Defontaine remarried in 1814 to silversmith Louis Nicolas Alban (see Arminjon 1: 2217 & 2472), and his daughter, Adelaide Hellaine, married silversmith Paul Barthelemy Rocquelin (see Arminjon I:2858) in 1825.

[cfauvel]

Oh my goodness, thank you so much Blackstone,
Excuse my ignorance, but what is "(see Arminjon I:2970)" ?

Should I just google the word Arminjon?

[cfauvel]

The maker is Pierre Rene Thomas Hellaine (see Arminjon I:2970). I think this must be a rather rare mark, since it was registered on 19 Mar 1808 and cancelled seventeen months later on 1 Sep 1809, by which time Hellaine had died. I have found very little information on him, though his widow, Lousie Adelaide Marie Defontaine remarried in 1814 to silversmith Louis Nicolas Alban (see Arminjon 1: 2217 & 2472), and his daughter, Adelaide Hellaine, married silversmith Paul Barthelemy Rocquelin (see Arminjon I:2858) in 1825.

What do you think the other parts of the hallmark are?

[blakstone]

My apologies; I didn't notice your post count and see now that you are relatively new to the forums. Welcome!

I was using shorthand to indicate the book Dictionnaire des poincons de fabricants d'ouvrages d'or et d'argent de Paris et de la Seine, 1798-1838 [Dictionary of Marks and Makers of Works in Gold and Silver in Paris and the Seine, 1798-1838] by Catherine Arminjon, which is the standard reference for Parisian maker's marks of the period. She wrote a second volume covering 1838-1875, and these are usually quick-referenced as Arminjon I and Arminjon II. The number after the colon indicates the number of the mark in the book. These books are unfortunately out-of-print and frightfully expensive (around $700-$800 each) on the second-hand market, but they can be found in some big city and university libraries, and I include the reference for forum readers who might want to check the original source. There is very little biographical information in Arminjon; usually just the entry and cancellation date for the mark, the specialty of the maker (flatware in Hellaine's case) and their working address (not given for Hellaine), plus a notation of Arminjon's primary sources. (The biographical information I have given is taken from my own research of primary documents in the Paris Civil Registration records.)

Finally, the other two marks are the Paris assay office guarantee mark and first standard (950/1000 pure) silver mark, both in use from 1798 to 1809; see the Overview of French Hallmarking on Silver and Gold on this website.

[cfauvel]

My apologies; I didn't notice your post count and see now that you are relatively new to the forums. Welcome!

Thanks ...yeah newbie....super interesting...do the books have a picture of the hallmark by the maker or do they just describe the hallmark?

Finally, the other two marks are the Paris assay office guarantee mark and first standard (950/1000 pure) silver mark, both in use from 1798 to 1809; see the Overview of French Hallmarking on Silver and Gold on this website.

Actually I was asking what are the objects between the P and H supposed to be.

All of he silverware I've been posting have been in the family since the late 1800s and based on my research in my family tree it jives with marriages.
I was gathering up all the information I could for my kids into a WORD doc before I kick the bucket (no time soon BTW).

Again thank you so much.

[blakstone]

My renewed apologies. The mark is PH with a tower below two crowns. And yes, very nearly all the marks are photographically reproduced in Arminjon. I'll see if I can upload a copy,

[cfauvel]

Thanks....I would like to see at least one page (maybe where P.H.) is found.... :-)