Early Hester Bateman Coconut Cup?

[legrandmogol]

There is only one mark and I believe it is an early Hester Bateman mark. Just wondering if anyone can confirm it. It has been repaired a few times as you can see.

[dognose]

Hi legrandmogol,

I would be reluctant to attribute this coconut cup to the work of the Bateman workshops. Your mark appears to have indents top and bottom which do not match those illustrated by Grimwade and also, unless the images are mis-leading me, the mark appears to be struck on a heavily soldered part of the base? If so, I could not see such solder-work leaving that workshop like that, and if done later, then the mark would surely more obscured by this additional work. It appears to me that the mark is original and stuck over the solder.

I think it's more likely that this item is of colonial origin, which to me, makes it far more interesting!

Having said that, let's wait for other opinions.

Trev.

[legrandmogol]

Thanks, Trev, I felt Hester Bateman was a long shot but the best I could guess at. You are right in that it seems the mark was made over the soldering which I assumed was a sloppy repair job. I am pretty confident though that the mark is an HB for whatever that is worth.

[spobby]

Just a stab in the dark - Henry Bailey?
Regards
John

[AG2012]

Hi,
I think solder spilled by coincidence very close to the mark ( arrow 1), a few drops spilled over the letters (2) meaning the mark is genuine and struck before repair (soldering). There is a possibility of more marks obscured by solder (3).
Not to blame the silversmith who repaired the cup; having in mind organic material (coconut), heating at very high temperature needed for silver solder to flow more evenly would have destroyed the coconut.


We should be more open minded in regard of the maker; it could be Continental and very old, too, having in mind coconuts were rare and exotic in the past, worth enough to be silver mounted.

Regards

[Aguest]

"In the 17th century, travelers and merchants brought back to this country (England) coconuts,
exotic shells and rare birds' eggs, which were given silver mounts"**.
Coconut cups were often turned into the bowl of a wine goblet.
"These often only have a maker's mark or perhaps no mark at all. They are rarely found with a full set of hallmarks."**
17th century examples normally had the rim mounts joined to the foot by means of three equally spaced vertical straps.
Common during the time of Charles II, these cups went out of vogue for a time."

[legrandmogol]

I know this cup has some 17th-century stylistic bits but the foot and the carving of the coconut are definitely Georgian. Also, it is hard to tell in my pics, especially the closer up you get but I think Trev is right, the mark was punched into solder that was not quite hardened yet so a little bit of the mark is blurred. It would have otherwise indeed have pooled into the mark. I originally thought Hester Bateman because I know very little of her early work is known. She took over her shop after the death of her husband who specialized in gold chain and wire making so I thought maybe her early work was a little cruder and perhaps she struck the mark after she repaired it. This is all speculation though with nothing to back it up. The mark is similar to the marks shown at https://www.silvermakersmarks.co.uk/Mak ... HC.html#HB which is a very useful site for British silver marks.

[AG2012]

The cup was repaired and a few drops of solder fell on already existing letters of the mark: arrow 2 in the image above.
Regards

[dognose]

She took over her shop after the death of her husband who specialized in gold chain and wire making so I thought maybe her early work was a little cruder and perhaps she struck the mark after she repaired it.

Please don't get the impression of an impoverished widow working with bloodied fingers in a damp cellar under the light of a candle, The Bateman workshops were an efficient modern outfit employing many hands under the eye of a very cute businesswoman. I doubt Hester ever swung a hammer at a piece of silver in her life.

Trev.

[legrandmogol]

Hester Bateman was an actual silversmith not just in name. It is believed she worked with her husband doing jobs for other silversmiths. In the early years, it was her, her 2 sons, and 1 apprentice. The silver manufacturing juggernaut she became wasn't until the 1770s.

[legrandmogol]

however, I am not saying this is her work though

[Aguest]

Maybe a specialist could comment on the piercing of the arms and the actual carving of the coconut shell itself. :::: Can we at least narrow down the time-frame (18th vs. 17th centuries) and the general area of construction (England vs. Continental)?

Am I the only one who wants to see a Hester Bateman movie? It would be very inspirational. :::

[dognose]

One of the reasons I've always doubted Hester Bateman was a working silversmith is the fact that Peter and Jonathan both served their apprenticeships under their brother-in-law, Richard Clarke, and not Hester herself.

It has always suited the antique trade to talk up Hester Bateman as a female working silversmith. As a prolific producer, with thousands of pieces still in circulation, prices would be very average, but the charm of a working female silversmith at this period of time has always ensured prices are kept at premium.

I guess we'll never know with 100% certainty either way. She was without doubt a clever woman, and I suspect clever enough to know that she could not build a large business without employing others to do the work for her.

Trev.

[legrandmogol]

she was indeed a clever woman but her legacy may be romanticized. and I would love a movie about her or rather an in-depth documentary.

[Aguest]

Yes a documentary with lots of scenes in the workshop showing how the ornate pieces were made. :::: All Hester aside, the mark could very well be that of Henry Bailey as previously mentioned. :::: If there is a super-expert in this field perhaps more could be learned about the silver structure and the coconut carving. :::: The pierced arms is what I find unusual, I cannot find another example of pierced arms. :::