Cigarette case silversmith ID.

[madej]

Hi
Thank you all for the answers. It was about identifying the silversmith with samorodok, and it also went down on a different topic:)
Certainly, it is a mark who put Dad (probably Abram Gavrilovich Shpaer) as an example and that's what I meant.
Regards

[Goldstein]

Hi -

the auctions are full with objects of the same maker - the punches are always in the same way unclear...
Here a typical non-Russian style purse (liner is missing):







Regards
Goldstein

[madej]

HI
I can not find anything more than what you posted. The mark that Dad has put on is clearly visible.
Purse which you showed is not typical because of the shape for Russian purse and is similar in form to the cigarette case you wrote about that is typically English. Just the same form in two objects of one silversmith can be a confirmation that, however, as I mentioned earlier, not everything that is not typical must be untrue(fake)
Regards

[AG2012]

Hi,
ш. Aрбетманъ name in gold application ends with ъ used before 1917.
After the linguistic reform the letter became obsolete.
I suppose the application is riveted (a proper way to apply it).
All said, the application was done before the revolution.
Applied to imported cigarette case,because the style is not Russian ?
Then marks erased (how ?) and faked, rather complicated marks of an unknown maker struck.
Looks like conspiracy theory.

[AG2012]

My mistake,confused cigarette cases with the purse in the last post. Referring to the application on the purse.

[Goldstein]

Hi AG2012 -

As a "conspiracy theorist" I am used to pay attention to the smallest detail! In this example: the purse is not from Russia - these models are only known to me from England. Since the lining is missing, you can see the attachment of the gold application well: they are rivets (!) And not as usual bent hooks (a clean processing was not necessary because the attachment was hidden by the liner). The spelling of the application (ш. Aрбетманъ) is obsolete and means nothing - because this name was taken from the fund, which has every good counterfeiters.
Here some example photos to underline my claim:

A purse


The liner


The "hooks" instead rivets under the liner




Rivets, never used under a liner!


Regards
Goldstein

[AG2012]

The "hooks" instead rivets under the liner

cannot be accepted as a general rule.Depends on silversmith`s preference Hooks are easier to make but need longer prongs and more gold wasted. Therefore preferred with the liner in purses because the liner hides them.
On the other hand,bent hooks in cigarette cases are not acceptable for obvious reasons.
Btw. Aрбетманъ family name ending with obsolete letter cannot be found any more and counterfeiting it makes no sense.Not profitable in this case even by Chinese.It`s extremely difficult to cut it and a lot of gold wasted for no profit.
Regards

[Goldstein]

Hi AG2012 -

I do not like to disagree but here I have on the basis of the present facts a different opinion. The stems soldered to the different applications (letters, words, names etc.) are 6mm long and always in copper! Copper is softer than silver or gold, better to rivet and much cheaper! Hooks were never used in cigarette cases - only in purses and handbags. Maybe you know that some fakers buy cheap and dented cigarette cases and "canibalise" them to get applications in silver or gold to use them on their fakes. By the way - on a closer look you see that the applications were strictly marked - front or back.
Exeption: goldsmith made faksimile signatures in gold or silver.

Example case



Copper rivets




Applications






Not all fakes come from China or India!

Regards
Goldstein

[AG2012]

Yes, there are old applications to be found,sometimes removed even for scrap gold, have seen St Anna order with gold filed off.
In short, you are right, an old application is not a guarantee of authenticity.
Regards

[Goldstein]

Hi AG2012 -

Thank you for considering my remarks - it's only an attempt to get closer to the truth .....

Regards
Goldstein

[AG2012]

The last cigarette case shown: Prince Ivan catching the fire-bird Russian folk fairy tale.
Regards

[Goldstein]

Hi AG2012 -

after 30 years this riddle is also solved! You only have to wait....

Many thanks!

Regards
Goldstein

[madej]

Hi
I return to the subject of the cigarette case which is unusual for Russian because I came from Odessa and saw once again a cigarette case of this unusual shape with Russian silver mark. What to think about it? Question to Goldstein: Could you show me some examples of this type of cigarette case with English hallmarks because I can not find.
Regards

[Goldstein]

Hi -

I am glad to do your homework - the internet auctions are full of them.....











If you are so convinced of a thing - why are you hesitant?

Regards
Goldstein

[madej]

Hi.
Thank you, but none of them, although similar is not the same as the two above and how I saw in Odessa. The closing (tab) is short and the cigarette case is "normal" and in the shown by you is not. There is no sings of faded marks on any of them.
Regards

[Goldstein]

Hi -

Perhaps you have missed that we have talked about the typical style of these cigarette cases and purses etc., which were very common in England but not in Russia.
I'm just trying to focus your attention on these things / facts - which conclusions you draw from it, is up to you. If you have bought enough wrong things, you will definitely rethink! Learning by doing.....

Regards
Goldstein

[madej]

Hi
I know you know what I mean but you try to turn it, but it's not important. I do not deny that this shape of cigarette cases is not the shape of typical Russian cigarette cases, but can not it differ from the norm? I asked to show the same cigarette case as the three mentioned and you attack me again. OK, nevermind.It does not impress me.
Regards