Cigarette case silversmith ID.

[madej]

Hello
Cigarette case made in samorodok technique, gold plated. The marks have been specially obliterated and deleted. You can see that it is probably the delta on the Kokoschnik, therefore Moscow. It looks a bit like a NES mark but that's probably not it. Polish mark are clearly visible: an owl (Polish lombard character), a woman's head with the number 2-silver 875 (84) in force until 1932, and an auxiliary sign.
Does anyone recognize a goldsmith?
Click on the image for better qualitty.
Regards

[madej]

Hi.
The marks are similar to those from the cigarette but these are certainly not:(

[Dad]

In maker mark - А.Г.Ш. , maker from Moscow, 1908 - .... . In Ivanov's book there are Абрам Гаврилович Шпаер ( Abram Gavrilovich Shpaer ). But, i don't trust him... )))

[madej]

Hi Dad

Thanks
Yes, this is the mark. I found a cigarette case with this mark on the net, but it is in the form that in the following thread
Goldstein described as typically English, never seen in Russia. What to think about?
Regards

viewtopic.php?f=46&t=50452

[madej]

fotosik.pl/1100/b1f288ad3c238656.jpg][/URL]
URL=https://images82.fotosik.pl/1102/e2976f55bb8b986d.jpg][/URL]
fotosik.pl/1102/b803d20fa6fbd90d.jpg][/URL]

[AG2012]

There is no reliable reference to attribute А.Г.Ш. to Абрам Гаврилович Шпаер.
Shown cigarette cases are Russian.
Regards

[madej]

Hi AG2012
Thanks for the answer
Regards

[madej]

AG2012
I do not know if I expressed myself well I know that my cigarette case samorodok is real Russian, I mean the one from the link above.
Regards

[AG2012]

The latter cigarette case is not a typical Russian style but on the other hand, it`s difficult to remove genuine marks and add faked Russian marks on gilded interior. Besides, where is the profit in faking unknown maker`s mark on rather common item ?

[madej]

I think the same as you. The following topic was about Artel because to authenticity or is Russian I had no reservations but after the statement Goldstein I began to wonder

viewtopic.php?f=46&t=50452

[Goldstein]

Hi -

I am not a clairvoyant but must cope with the facts.The shown cigarette case is a wellknown European patteren - mostly used in the UK. The design of the hinges and eyelets for the rubber bands are typical of the European area. Turquoise cabochons are completely atypical of Russia - unless they have been exchanged later!





Here is the typical Russian style for comparison:





Who has attached which stamp when, I can not say - because even this stamp gives rise to considerable doubts!

Regards
Goldstein

[madej]

Hi.
Anyway, if something is not clear, it does not mean that it is not real. We have two examples of cigarette cases of the same form, unusual for Russian cigarette cases, but still existing. And again the question is why counterfeit signs of the middle goldsmith and where were they original?
Regards

[madej]

[Goldstein]

Hi -

there is so much authentic Russian silver around - find it! Why you find always dubious objects?
Maybe your sources are not the best....
If you are convinced of one thing, you do not have to ask.

Regards
Goldstein

[madej]

I asked about a goldsmith from 100% certain Russian cigarette case samorodok. After entering the goldsmith in Google, which may be the creator of my cigarette case, I just found this cigarette with this sign. That it is in such a form as the one you were talking about and your undermining of its authenticity, it interested me.
Regards

[Goldstein]

Hi -

I asked about a goldsmith from 100% certain Russian cigarette case samorodok.

How can you know that the cigarette case is 100% Russian made? Estonia, Latvia and Finnland made exact the same Samorodok style cases.
The maker is dubious.Too many inconsistencies.....
Maybe the wrong conclusions?

Regards
Goldstein

[madej]

Omitting the style of can be the same as you write the same in Estonia, Latvia Finland, however, you can see that the blurred, deleted mark is a kokoshnik and the one I was asking for a silversmith mark.Often in Poland there is silver with damaged marks, mainly Jewish silversmith but just like in this case Russian.I understand that you may have doubts about the cigarette case in the form as you wrote English, but I do not think you have any doubts about this samorodok. I think you are just teasing.
Regards

[madej]

*kokoshnik with Δ

[Goldstein]

Hi -

I believe that the Samorodok case is Russian made and authentic - it is only unclear who the maker is - and if it is A.G. Schpaer. The mark is not very clear punched - so maybe something was overstamped. Samorodok is not a sole Russian invention - so you have to be careful in your judgement.

Regards
Goldstein

[Aguest]

I'm not convinced the stone is a turquoise, perhaps due to the lighting in the pic, but if it is a turquoise cabochon, it is an extremely light-blue color, perhaps a Persian Turquoise, which were mined circa 1900, so it would fit the general time-frame, but I am still not convinced that the cabochon is a turquoise, but it could be the lighting in the pic :::