Small Russia silver stand with enamel cup

[gsmoggy]

I members
I have just purchased this piece ,which I think is interesting.I would like know members opinions about it.
Regards Guido.

[AG2012]

Hi,
Unfortunately, it`s a modern total fake.
Regards

[gsmoggy]

Hi Ag thanks for your reply .Where and when do you think it was made? I felt all the marks looked original.and the quality of the base was good.

Regards Guido.

[AG2012]

Hello again,
Just look at the enamel.This cannot be Faberge.The marks are beyond discussion, poor fakes.
India, China.
Regards

[Dad]

Hi,

Perhaps base for egg is original, but egg is out ....

[AG2012]

Marks on the stand. (The egg is beyond discussion).
Please, pay attention to:
Lettering:
Letter ``K`` ? Letter Ф tilted to left, letter ``A`` much thinner than the rest, letter ``Б`` beyond recognition,
Now evaluate all letters one by one and as a whole.
Imperial eagle ?
Letter delta is not an acute triangle.
Head !!!!
Number ``4``

I doubt this set of marks could have left Faberge workshop.
Eager to hear more opinions.
Regards

[AG2012]

[gsmoggy]

Hi members
I would like to agree with Dad that the base could be right,and the cup later.It seems to me there is a lot of confusion about Faberge fake and original marks.This is the first Faberge (maybe) marked piece i have purchased feeling and handling the base, the quality did not have a feeling of a fake to me. As Goldstein stated on Dec 15 -2-2015 Moscow made less sophisticated objects than in St Petersburg .
I have also read on the forum where the problem with marks on fakes is that the marks are usually to good. It seems that now saying the marks on my base are not good enough is a bit confusing. I do not know why anyone would make such a fine quality understated item and put a fake mark on it ,when it is of very low value.I was originally going to post a picture of only the base as I felt that the cup would confuse things.Feeling the cup was not right when I bought it,but at the time buying it mainly for the base.
On having a closer look at the base I have noticed that there are signs that it was gilded in the past ,also there is a patina on the silver that I feel is very hard to fake.
This reminds me of one of my earlier posts about a Russian box that was first thought to be some elcheapo, finally proven to be made in Armenia after 1927 sometime.
It does not bother me exactly where my base was made everyone will have there opinions ,I am far from an expert.All I can say that it feels right to me and I am happy with it .

[gsmoggy]

Hi Members
I have posted some more images of the silver base that we are discussing to see if this helps in our discussion.Size 60mm Dia -50mm high.

Many thanks Guido.



Many thanks Guido.

[Goldstein]

Hi gsmoggy -

first of all: how many Fabergé objects you have held already in your hands in the past? As well from St. Petersburg as well from Moscow (there were different/uncluttered models - but always superb in quality!). Did you check the actual silver content from your stand? Is it silver? 875 Zolotniki or better? Is the rather "unfinished" surface typical for works of Fabergé? Was it gilded or is it silver plated brass heavyly rubbed?
Do you know how fakes are made? Do you know the philosophy/motto of fakers:"create cheap - sell expensive!" Do you know that 2nd or third class silver from Europe is reborn as Fabergé - only by adding a more or less correct punch - can you distinguish the different marks from St. Petersburg and Moscow? Do you know where different punches must be placed - according to the different laws in different years?
Do you know the international market price of objects like that? Compare the market price with the price you paid - is it higher - you are a fool. Is it much lower - you are a superfool. Maybe you thought the vendor can not read? What ever - there is only one winner: the seller!

An often given advice: "Ask first - buy later!" stays unheard again and again.

Unfortunately I can not feel sorry for you - you got what you deserve!

All the best
Goldstein

[Qrt.S]

@Goldstein
You could have expressed yourself a bit nice and not attacked gsmoggy so harsh. Anyway, there is much reality in what you are stating and the object is if not a fake it, anyway, carries fake marks. The quality is "average" and not even close to what Fabergé's factory produced. I also share AG2012's opinion.
Very sorry psmoggy, but your "bargain" is not much to put in the Christmas tree!
Take the good advice given: "Ask first, then buy or leave it".

[Goldstein]

Hi gsmoggy -

the maker´s mark on your fake is I.P. = Julius A. Rappoport 1864-1916
He was the leading (!) silversmith of the firm Fabergé!


Here an example of his workmanshift


Here a stand with an egg, a Bonbonniere "Fabergé style", made by Michael Perchin


Maybe you can see the difference....

Regards
Goldstein

[AG2012]

I`m sure we are all very benevolent and helpful here.
Concluding the discussion with ``the thing speaks for itself``
Acanthus border by ``Faberge`` (top) and by Wilhelm Binder - Schwäbisch Gmünd (bottom).
Pay attention to details, please.
When casting silver the process leaves crude surface that needs chiseling and polishing.
Regards

[gsmoggy]

Hi Members
Thank you all for your replies .It is interesting to me that I am being attacked about my item,when all I did was post the item.I did not mention Faberge the members mentioned it.I wonder why?all I said I purchased this interesting item,to accuse me of being a fool is not that smart .I am not a Faberge collector ,I collect interesting (to me) small mainly silver boxes .No body knows what I paid for the item whether it was $10.00 or $10.000. I feel all you so called experts, that may be right or maybe wrong about your opinions do not get it .I would like to know the correct answer about my piece but I do not really care if you are right or not .It seems you are a bit brain washed by all the multi million dollar items and think that all of the things made at that time must have all been spectacular .No average items ever made. Is it possible to show me some similar bases to mine made in India China with the same marks. I did not put the mark on it ,I do not know who put the marks on it Neither do any of the members. You do not have the item in front of you photos online do not always tell the true story handling it gives a feel of Quality .All i can say is that the quality is their in my opinion and it does not feel Indian or Chinese to me.
All you experts can have an opinion ,pity none of us were there in 1915-1917,to see what really went on .

As I have read on the forum before stop posting magnificent Faberge things ,I have lots of Faberge books to look at.

Kind regards Guido.

[Goldstein]

Hi gsmoggy -

It is interesting to me that I am being attacked about my item,when all I did was post the item.I did not mention Faberge the members mentioned it.I wonder why?

This forum is a place with many excellent, knowing and proficient silver-loving experts from and for many countries. Authenic silver - not fake silver!
You can handle a keyboard - therefore I can suppose you can read. You knew what you bought or better - you thought you knew what you bought!
You did not approach the purchase unprepared.

As I have read on the forum before stop posting magnificent Faberge things ,I have lots of Faberge books to look at.

After the purchase you wanted to be sure.

I would like know members opinions about it.

Member´s opinions was what you got.

I can understand your frust and disappointment - especially because it is a very primitive fake.

But do not try to persuade us that this is the long missed link you have found....

Maybe next time!
There is much excellent stuff around - you only must recognize it.
And please aske before you buy!!!!

Regards
Goldstein

[gsmoggy]

Hi Goldstein
Many thanks for your opinion .
You still have not told me where my piece was made and who put the marks on it.You did not seem to answer the question that they may also have made average style things.

BY the way watching the Antiques Roadshow the other night it was interesting to see a cigarette case in white metal signed Boucheron Paris. the presenter did not mention it was a fake .Would you have thought that such a famous company would make something in white metal? such a low value item. This is my point you do not know what did and did not come out of workshops of different companies.

Regards Guido.

[Aguest]

Somewhere in India and/or China is the best guess as to where these objects are produced, there are even on-line catalogues where you can purchase objects with Faberge, Ovichnikov, Gustav Klingert, and other top-tier enamel silversmiths from over 100 years ago ___ Ultimately, we just don't know where they are coming from, exactly, given the nature of faking antiquities it's not like the silversmiths are going to give away their location that easily due to counterfeiting laws.

I have tried to buy an enamel fork and an enamel spoon and both turned out to be fake, and I have really tried to study the real objects vs. the non-real objects, and I still failed, I was still convinced by these objects, and it's not just myself, I know other antiques dealers and collectors who have been fooled over the years.

There are instances where the experts disagree, and one expert will be convinced of authenticity while the other expert disagrees, but this is not one of those cases, and I am truly sympathetic because I have been fooled by these forgeries, and I really understand the situation here.

[gsmoggy]

Hi Aguest
Thank you very much for your input and all the info. I knew what I was buying when I purchased my item .I posted the item on the forum to get opinions on it ,which I now have and I am grateful for them. I made a decision to purchase knowing all the possibilities .Fake cup ,stand with Faberge marks maybe right maybe wrong ,as i have said before i feel it is very well made (the stand)and if it not made by Faberge it really does not worry me as much as it does most members ,only i know what i paid for the item ,I felt it was worth buying for my own personal reasons .As I have said before to me it does not really matter where it was made, no one really seems to know.

As I said before I am not a collector of Faberge ,I collect all sorts of things ,small silver boxes ,Miniatures ,Paintings ,Bronze sculptures,clocks etc.
Although most members feel they have a lot of expertise on some of these silver topics ,they sometimes do not understand the bigger picture when it comes to peoples personal choices,and why we make them.It is very simple to label someone a fool,without knowing the full story .

Best Regards Guido.

PS I usually post the new items I purchase whether they a fake or not to show members and get opinions .You never know one day to get the members excited I may one day post a real Faberge piece .

[Goldstein]

Hi gsmoggy -

Basically, I can understand your point of view or your motive of collecting all the things you like, very well. We all started more or less like that. But after some time you discover that there exist different qualities of the things you collect - more heapping up - than collecting. You seek for informations. With informations comes knowledge. With knowledge comes wisdom. You see things others do not see. You know what you are doing!
A small side effect: your horizon is greatly expanded - the things you collect are worth a lot more than you paid for them - you could always sell them with good profit.
The randomly collected rubbish only takes up space and is a worthless dust collector.
One day you will agree with me.
In any case - good luck!

Regards
Goldstein

[gsmoggy]

Hi Goldstein
I agree with everything you say.
I would always like to have to original of something rather than the copy .But as you know through history there is not much that has not been copied ,there are museums and galleries full of copies of all sorts of things.

There is an old saying in buying property ,POSITION -POSITION-POSITION-POSITION.

One thing that should go with that saying that i have added myself ,that most people forget to mention is

MONEY-MONEY-MONEY-MONEY.

also in my opinion there is a lot of original junk around, That the highly educated experts try and convince us that it is fabulous,I feel it is better to have our own opinions when buying things.

Best regards Guido.