Candle Stick Holder confusion about marks

[jimmyjakejr]

This candlestick holder only has the purity mark and what I think is the St. Petersburg town mark from 1700-1730. This was the only town mark that looked close from reading this website. No other markings. It weighs about 12 ounces. Any thoughts on the item?

[Qrt.S]

Good question indeed. A suspicious object.... The town mark indicates Moscow around 1720 but the fineness mark of 84 was introduced not earlier than in 1798 and then the Moscow town mark was St. George slaughtering the dragon. Let's wait for other opinions...

[dognose]

What are the initials above the eagle's heads?

GS?

Trev.

[huszas76]

Well... I'm not a russian expert, but this item is suspicious for me too.
The style is not Russian type, and so so much younger than the marks suggests.
I think it'from the second half of the 19. Century.
Best regards.
Krisztián

[Goldstein]

Hi jimmyjakejr -

this is a typical sabbath candlestick as they were made in Poland. The shown marks are the crippelt Polish assaymarks under russian rule - also the maker´s mark is missing. The candlestick is authentic!

the crippelt mark:


the correct mark (example):


The reason for this "marking" I do not know - in Poland many things are inexplicable.....

Regards
Goldstein

source: Znaki srebra

[Qrt.S]

Sorry Goldstein, take a closer look at the "84" mark. The notches are missing. They appear as from 1882 before that no notches. In addition, as already mentioned the town mark does not correlate to the "84" mark. Moreover, where are the assayer's mark and maker's mark? Something is not in place...

[Goldstein]

Hi -

in Poland many things are different! Here a small selection of different but legit marks from authentic silver. Marks that in your opinion could/should not exist...

They appear as from 1882 before that no notches

......








etc, etc...

Regards
Goldstein

[Qrt.S]

@Goldstein
What do you mean? I wrote that there are no notches on the fineness mark before 1882
The marks you show in order:

1. The year is 1865 and there are no notches on 84. Isn't 1865 before 1882
2. RHS R. Hersz Szyldberg, active 1862-1872. No notches on 84. Isn't it before 1882
3. G.Radke active 1881-1894 with ordinary notches on the dvoinik meaning after 1882
4. I Rozencweig, ordinary notches on 84 i.e. after 1882
5. S.F is unknown to name and working period...before after 1882, who knows?
etc. etc.

The markings are all quite in line with the regulation.

[Goldstein]

Hi -

back to the topic:

the candle stick is an authentic Sabbath candle stick, a better one (there were about 7 different models in existence in Poland) with in this form unknown marks. Knowing the Polish history/past and the sometimes "unclear" marking habits - I have no doubts about the silver content.
Facit: a nice collectors item.

Regards
Goldstein

[Qrt.S]

So the conclusion is that a (suspicious Polish) candlestick with conflicting incomplete marks is genuine because during the Russian rule 1795-1918 in "Poland" with its history the local goldsmiths marked this and that or whatever on their manufactured objects ignoring completely the strict Russian regulations?
Come on now. The only authenticity here is that it is a candlestick.

[jimmyjakejr]

Thank you for the replies. You have certainly given me a lot to think about. I do believe the candle holder is silver but cannot confirm actual purity. I am happy with it as a decorative item.

As to the question of initials above the head I cannot make out any detail in them or confirm they are initials.

Thank you.