RUSSIAN SILVER SPOON 3

[niceguy1]

Hello

Who is the maker & assayer of this spoon?

Thanks

[Goldstein]

Hi niceguy1 -

Kiew, assayer L. F. Oleks 1909-14, Master: unknown to me

Maybe you buy some books and start your own research ?

Regards
Goldstein

source: PL, # 3873

[niceguy1]

Thanks for your help & advice.

I don't read Russian unfortunately, are there any good comprehensive books on Russian hallmarks in English?

[Goldstein]

Hi niceguy1 -

for the beginner I recommend:


advantage: not expensive and easy to get ...Google---Amazon etc.
disadvantage: some mistakes like in all publikations - but 90% are OK! You always can ask - there is always someone who knows everything better!

Regards
Goldstein

[Qrt.S]

This is the first kokshnik 1899-1908. Lev Oleks assayed in Moscow 1889-1904 thereafter in Kiev 1905-1914 and again in Moscow 1915-1917. The maker ВЛ is from Moscow. His name is Vasily Kirillovich Lapshin, active around the turn of the century.

The recommended book is not a good choice. Some mistakes!? Much more than "some", actually quite a lot of errors and misspellings etc.. It will most likely kill your interest rapidly. Unfortunately there are no good books in English.

[Goldstein]

Hi -
no book is better than a book with mistakes! What a nonsense. All books have mistakes!
Newcomers should be supported not demoralized with such statements.

Here another good book for the beginner:


Regards
Goldstein

[Qrt.S]

That is a much better book, but it approaches the subject differently. Anyway, there is a huge difference between "mistakes" and carelessly written text etc.. The sad thing is that the book in question is a typical example of a source of how insufficient information is spread allover as being the truth.

[Goldstein]

Hi -

Therefore it is absolutely necessary to name the corresponding source(s) for each given answer. Thus the questioner is in a position to examine what has been said and experiences some interesting ways to deepen his knowledge in several respects. In addition, he has access to further literature or sources until now unknown to him.
There is no just one book with all the answers! You have to dig - one book is better here - the other is better there. Together, supplemented with informations from many other sources, they are fine. The start is always difficult - but with the success the pleasure grows!
Negative settings have never caused anything!
An answer without a reliable primary source is worthless and will be ignored all around the world.
It is either wrong, rests only on hearing / saying or there is no reasonable source at all.
So - beware!

Regards
Goldstein

[Dad]

This is the first kokshnik 1899-1908. Lev Oleks assayed in Moscow 1889-1904 thereafter in Kiev 1905-1914 and again in Moscow 1915-1917. The maker ВЛ is from Moscow. His name is Vasily Kirillovich Lapshin, active around the turn of the century.....

Hi.

Not Correct. These are the Kiev marks. Lev Olex was the head of Kiev assay office during action of the "kokoshnik to left" marking. In this period in Moscow hallmarks there are initials of Ivan Lebedkin only.

[Goldstein]

Hi Dad -

Thanks for the correction!

Regards
Goldstein

[Qrt.S]

@Dad
This is interesting, what indicates the marks being from Kiev? To my understanding Oleks assayed in Kiev 1905-1914. The left kokshnik was used 1899-1908. That gives us a common time span of 3 years (1905-1908) for Kiev/Oleks/ВЛ . In addition, in Kiev there is no known ВЛ master at all.

Oleks assayed in Moscow 1889-1904 (and 1915-1917). That again gives us a common time span of 5 years i. e. 1899-1904. In Moscow you have one known maker’s mark ВЛ. That is V. Lapshin’s initials. His working years are unfortunately not exactly known but they were around the turn of the century.
What goes wrong, why would it be Kiev? I would appreciate a clarification, thank you.

Moreover, in Moscow there were half a dozen assayers Oleks included and not only Lebedev during the mentioned period. I don’t understand your statement, please clarify. Do we have a language problem here?

[Ubaranda]

Hello Qrt.S!

Oleks was the assayer in Moscow and the chief of the assay district office in Kiev. Lebedkin was the chief of the assay district office in Moscow.
There were just the initials of the he chief of the assay district office on "left kokoshnik" hallmarks.
I know Kiev's silversmith V.Lukin. Maybe VL (ВЛ) is he.

Regards.

[Qrt.S]

@Ubaranda
Hm, interesting, V. Lukin is a new name to me. When was his working period in Kiev? The kokoshnik is right looking 1908-1917/26 and on the first mark it is left looking 1899-1908. Quite a time span, isn't it? The odds are for Lapshin or? Anyway, kindly tell me what indicates Kiev in the questioned mark?

[Ubaranda]

I explain once again: ЛО are the initials of the chief of the Kiev's assay office Lev Friedrichovich Oleks (since April 1904).

[Qrt.S]

I understood very well but is it a fact that Oleks was in Kiev in already in 1904? in my records Oleks was in Kiev as from 1905 and in 1904 still in Moscow (source Ivanov p. 607).

[Goldstein]

Hi Ubaranda -

the often mentioned importance of sources and real existing punches!
Many thanks for that!

Regards
Goldstein

[Goldstein]

Hi all -

no more personal opinions - just a real source from Dad:


Kiev:

In 1898 Vyrzhikovskij A.K. was head of assay office in Kiev.
In 1901 Vyrzhikovskij A.K. was head of assay office in Kiev.
In 1904 Vyrzhikovskij wasn't in Kiev. The post of the head of assay office in Kiev was vacant.
In 1906 Oleks L.F. was head of assay office in Kiev, already.

Warsaw:

In 1899 Romanov A.V. was head of assay office in Warsaw.
In 1907 Vyrzhikovskij A.K. was head of assay office in Warsaw.

Sources: The memorial books of the Warsaw,
The memorial books of the Kiev, the List of mountain engineers 1910

sources are better than copy and paste "informations" from past threads!

Regards
Goldstein