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Hello, can anybody help me with Russian silver marks on this piece? Many thanks in advance!!!

Hi Dane111 -
I do not know how much you know about Russian silver, niello and the different makers.
The crippelt marks show the following:
Assaymark Moscow (1873-1877 in use, on your cigar container exact date not legible).

Maker´s mark ГK (GK) could be Gustav Klingert - but he did not work in niello - just in case he sold niello from contractors (we never heared of that) - the quality is not good enough for his standards, besides the mark is not like all the different from him known marks. Facit: No Klingert object!
The object is authentic - but the maker is for me unknown.

Regards
Goldstein

Hi Golstein,

I don't know a lot about Russian silver, niello etc, but I can read, find information and connect facts. Also have some experience in antiques. Silver does not mean only silver items like cuttlery etc, but it's also part of many other items, particularly in high quality weapons, so I've seen a lot of that.

Thank you very much for recognising assayer's city and period. I didn't see enough of them to recognise from partially destroyed hallmark.

Re Klingert - you are not right, he worked in niello. Maybe not himself personally, but his workshop, with his stamps. As you probably know, serious manufactories had plenty of people working, not only master. I.e. Jean-Henri Riesener, the best cabinetmaker in L.XVI period in France, had about 100-150 people working for him. Same with old master paintings (Rubens usually was making the composition and painted persons, background was made by his employees or other artists he cooperated with. I don't believe businesman like Kliengert left aside one of techniques demanded by a market. Maybe he didn;t make it with his hands, maybe he subcontracted, does not matter, it was stapmed by him.

Check some Russian items on links below. You can say it's all fake, but sorry, I do believe Russians are the best to recognise their works of art. On the forum I show you links, items were offered to sell. Believe, if it's fake, it would be many comments about it, I have experience on same and other Russian forums in other fields of collecting.

Links:
https://forums-su.com/viewtopic.php?f=431&t=639826 cigarette case, enough to have short view to see that it's from same hand as the cigar box I asked about.
Primo - central medalion has different shape, but it's made exactly the same, using same techniques and same decor.
Secundo - look on silver between niello - it's very characteristic with small dots made with sharp tool. This kind of decor is not presented on most of niello items, where it's usually mirror polished.
Tertio - niello kind of decor - very delicate floral pattern with precise shading making it alive. Compare to most of late 19th / early 20th c. niello objects, where you see irregular black spots, nothing close to precise drawing. Obviously, there are some better niello items, like a spoon you showed in one of posts, but I can see huge differences to Klingert's (workshop?) work, which (for me) has some characteristic style.

https://forums-su.com/viewtopic.php?f=431&t=652336 - set of spoons, little different decor, but you can see punched dots on silver, IMHO characteristic for Klingert's workshop.

https://forums-su.com/viewtopic.php?f=431&t=478924 - very similar cigar box, but in quite bad condition, IMO overcleaned, what partially damaged the original pattern. Anyway, particularly on the picture of front, with less damages, you can see characteristic dots on silver and same floral design with shades as on other works above. Medallion is also in the same style.

https://forums-su.com/viewtopic.php?f=431&t=632311 - different item, additionally decorated with very well engraved troyka. Notice that "frame" around engraved picture is same as on medalions above. On other side is same style made medalion as on cigar box and cigarettes boxes. When you look on niello decor around it, it jas or stylistic forms wich are IMHO characteristic for niello decor.

When I checked some niello works with Klingert's stamp presented in Russia, I came to the obvious conclusion: Klingert or his workshop offered niellod items with his stamps.

On the item I asked about it's not "poor quality niello", as you written. Poor quality niello is in popular items, like series of souvenirs with Kavkaz niello descirption (example: http://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic ... 46&t=48781 - poor quality engravement on silver, not precise niello, no shades). Cigar box has much better quality. I will make some close up pictures to show you the difference, if you don't see it. Stop talking about your thoughts, published here as revealed truth. If you want to learn something - examining item is not only looking on stamps and shouting on people asking here for help from position of knowing all. You should recognise style of maker, techniques, quality of work, type of item, period it was made (if i.e. decoration patterns could be used in this time), compare to originals... etc, etc. As I can see, you make several mistakes in recognising, you are simple to confident in yourself, few books you have and your experience (which I do respect). Forum is place for discussion not posting opinions closing the subject "because I know the best".

Best regards,
Dane

Goldstein wrote:Hi Dane111 -
I do not know how much you know about Russian silver, niello and the different makers.
The crippelt marks show the following:
Assaymark Moscow (1873-1877 in use, on your cigar container exact date not legible).

Maker´s mark ГK (GK) could be Gustav Klingert - but he did not work in niello - just in case he sold niello from contractors (we never heared of that) - the quality is not good enough for his standards, besides the mark is not like all the different from him known marks. Facit: No Klingert object!
The object is authentic - but the maker is for me unknown.

Regards
Goldstein

Hi Dane111 -

I ask you again:
1) How much do you know about Russian silver, enamel, lacquer, niello, paper maché etc. and its makers? There were poor, good, better and excellent makers. Are you able to distinguish the different stages of markmanshift? Can you assign objects to certain artists / producers when you see them? Do you recognize the differences in quality and design? Do you know all the brands and stamps and their variants? Can you decide if an object is a fake or authentic? Do you have your own judgment or are you dependent on the opinions of others?
In other words, do you have the necessary expertise?
2) Are you aware of the fact that nowhere exist as much fakes as in Russian silver? Can you distinguish counterfeits from authentic silver? Do you know that an international "counterfeiting industry" is earning the millions? Do you know that China and India produce the best enamel and silver fakes?
Here 2 catalog pages - for larger orders there are considerable discounts! Only top names of course! Look at the quality! You can order objects of which only one exemplare is known per dozens....


Here 3 objects in niello in "normal" quality


Here
Here 2 objects in niello in "high" quality


Here 2 objects of G. Klingert in cloisonné enamel he was famous for


At the Chicago World Fair of 1893 the firm G. Klingert was named as among the most important - for his enamel - in this form and quality outstanding and never before seen. Why he showed not some of his mediocre niello? Why is he not mentioned in Alexander von Solodkoff´s book "Russian Gold and Silverwork 17th-19th Century" on pp. 215-217 (19th and beginning 20th century) where all the known niello artists are listed? Why is eBay full of his "oevre"?
You must not believe me - be independent and make your own decisions!
Just start to think!
I know what I do - you too?

Regards
Goldstein

When I bought my "Klingert" spoon, it was an "Up-Cycled" spoon by another maker, it had an Austro-Hungarian import mark, and you could see that someone had superimposed the Klingert Initials "GK" over the original hallmark. So I began to look at everything Klingert, in books, in museums, on websites, and it is true what Goldstein says, absolutely true...

There are clear fakes for sale on auction websites, and nobody is saying anything about the fake Klingert spoons. I thought about saying something, but I did not, the problem was so widespread, where to begin? The auction websites did not take action to remove these fake spoons, and I could identify the fake Klingert spoons because I had taken the time to research the subject (books, museums, websites). Now just because I could identify the fake spoons, this doesn't mean that the seller will be somehow magically convinced and stop selling the fake Klingert spoons?

So the best I can do is research books, museums and websites, but I lack the expertise because I have never held these objects in my hand and examined them in detail over a long period of time. That is the true expertise, it seems to me at least.

Hi all -

I took the trouble to study one of the "so-called" Klingert Niello objects more closely. It has been confirmed what has been known for a long time: either existing, authentic items are "revaluated" with new marks, or since some time complete new manufactured objects are offered. The countries of origin are also known.The quality of this fakes is very good - there are some "give aways" - but I will not reveal them here.
The Russian cigarette cases have a different (larger) format than the European cases because of the format of the Russian cigarettes. The snuff boxes are roughly the same. Here the more or less standard measures:

It is recommended to remeasure a dubious case before you buy it!
Here the dubious object - a snuff box 9.5 cm X 6,5 cm
Age: 129 years
Conservation status: brand new, unused (!)
Quality: standard quality for Russian niello at that time - the usual inaccuracies in the pattern (red arrows) are due to the manual work normal for the standard quality. For a Klingert case unthinkable!
Marks: fuzzy, indistinct - although the stamp surface is planar and easy to reach - not original/contemporary!










Regards
Goldstein

Hi -

forgot to mention 2 things:
1) the gilding inside of the box is artificially aged (rubbed) to pretend a use - although the box´s outside is brand new and unused!
2) there are 2 different punches used to mark the box - as well from the supposed maker (GK) as well from the supposed assayer A. Romanov!

Regards
Goldstein

A good input from Goldstein. Nonetheless, I'd like to add some additions. Gustav Klingert rarely used Latin letters in his punches. He had, however, one punch GK.. with a dot in the end! However, this punch is too often mixed with another punch i.e. Cyrillic CK (Latin SK) without a dot. This is one of Semen Kasakov's punches also working with enamel around 1889-1908. The point is that in his punch the Cyrillic "C" confusingly resembles a Latin "G". See P#2881, p. 227. Many of Kasakov's enameled objects are misleadingly claimed to be made by Klingert, which is usually not the case. Gustav Klingert mostly used the following punches: ГК in oval or rectangular shield without a dot, КЛИНГАРТ, KLINGERT but also the more seldom used confusing GK..

Hi -

based on the marks it is sometimes very difficult to distinguish Semen Kasakov (1889-1908) Court supplier and Gustav Klingert (1865-1917); both from Moskow.
Until about 1899 Klingert´s mark was in Latin characters, thereafter in Cyrillic. Both used similar colours in their enamelwork. Often this circumstance and the similarity of the mark is used to cheat the unknowing buyer! If you know your stuff you have no problems.
Some examples for better understanding:
S.Kasakov







G.Klingert



Regards
Goldstein

Goldstein wrote:Hi Dane111 -
Do you know that China and India produce the best enamel and silver fakes?

On the post of Jewish forum, you said that most of fakes is produced in Poland. OK, maybe it's not the best.
Best regards,
Dane

Goldstein wrote: 2) Are you aware of the fact that nowhere exist as much fakes as in Russian silver? Can you distinguish counterfeits from authentic silver? Do you know that an international "counterfeiting industry" is earning the millions? Do you know that China and India produce the best enamel and silver fakes?

Hello Goldstein,

I do not care. Everything is faked. Do you know that about 90% of Russian edged weapons on the market is fake? Do you know that 90% of fakes are so poor quality, that minimum of knowledge allows to recognise it? Do you know that Chinese produce fake trooper's shashka M1881 with cyphers QWERTY in a circle and some idiots try to sell it as original? Do you know that small percent of fakes has amazing quality? I simple ask many people who I believe when I want to buy something, if any doubts I leave the item, anyway, finally I make my own decision on base of many factors, to include chemical or matallurgical analyses in some cases.

Best regards,
Dane

Aguest wrote: So the best I can do is research books, museums and websites, but I lack the expertise because I have never held these objects in my hand and examined them in detail over a long period of time. That is the true expertise, it seems to me at least.

Hello Aguest,

If I can advice something - try to get in touch with collectors. If you know some, they will show you their collections with pleasure. You will have opportunity to touch everything and get knowledge from the best source - collector himself.

Second - visit auction houses. They don't sell fakes only. Before the auction you can examine any item you want. If you don't want to touch extremely expensive positions, of course.

Regards,
Dane

Goldstein wrote:Hi Dane111 -
I ask you again:
1) How much do you know about Russian silver, enamel, lacquer, niello, paper maché etc. and its makers? There were poor, good, better and excellent makers. Are you able to distinguish the different stages of markmanshift? Can you assign objects to certain artists / producers when you see them? Do you recognize the differences in quality and design? Do you know all the brands and stamps and their variants? Can you decide if an object is a fake or authentic? Do you have your own judgment or are you dependent on the opinions of others?
In other words, do you have the necessary expertise?

Hello Goldstein,

I've answered this question earlier, in one of posts. I know enough to find the information, compare, ask somebody to help, link techniques with period, about historical background (you proved it's your weak point)... etc and finally - draw logical conclusions. Question about all stamps and variants - be serious, that's why books are printed. Not very smart question - can you decide if item is fake or not? Of course NOT. But I'm sure, you always can. Museums sometimes needs tons of experts, chemical and other analyses, microscopes etc and at least - item in hands. But you can evaluate each object on the base on poor quality and resolution pictures, posted on forum. Be serious.

About quality - telling gently, you are missing the truth. Sure, artists were Gods, with no bad days, no hangover, no sickness, no being weaker with age, no loosing sight, not learning during the career - making masterpieces from childhood, no depending on subcontractors and employees, producing always for richest people, so the top items only. To make answer short, check two pictures below.



Both beds from empire period, both made by Jacob Freres. Do you see the difference in quality? Same maker.

Best regards,
Dane

Goldstein wrote: At the Chicago World Fair of 1893 the firm G. Klingert was named as among the most important - for his enamel - in this form and quality outstanding and never before seen. Why he showed not some of his mediocre niello?

That's obvious for me. He did same as I do when going with company for a trade show - I take best products. As you wrote - he was famous of enamel, so he showed mostly enamel. As we agree his niello was far behind enamel, why he should show it?

Goldstein wrote: Why is he not mentioned in Alexander von Solodkoff´s book "Russian Gold and Silverwork 17th-19th Century" on pp. 215-217 (19th and beginning 20th century) where all the known niello artists are listed? Why is eBay full of his "oevre"?
You must not believe me - be independent and make your own decisions!
Just start to think!
I know what I do - you too?
Regards
Goldstein

Why not in the book? Maybe cause he didn't make niello himself? Maybe it was subcontracted from other company? Maybe cause he didn't use this technique personally, only his employee? Maybe he tried it for very short time and decide to discontinue becuase of poor results?

eBay is full of all kinf of fakes, but you can also find a treasure there. I just wrote "Klingert niello", not a single item on eBay.com. One in Germany, same as you've shown pictures, one in France. So if it means eBay is full, I don't understand word "full". "Klingert enamel" 30 results, that's closer to "full".

Best regards,
Dane

Dane111 -

you should not hijack a post you have nothing to contribute. If you want to participate stay on topic.

Dane111 wrote: Goldstein wrote:
Hi Dane111 -
Do you know that China and India produce the best enamel and silver fakes?
On the post of Jewish forum, you said that most of fakes is produced in Poland. OK, maybe it's not the best.
Best regards,
Dane

Here is what was actual written:


Regards
Goldstein

Hi -

after Dane111 and his ally (you know who you are - me too!) stoped his comical attacks - we can proceed:

Here a small spoon from Kasakov, the colours of the enamel in the colour pattern of Klingert, often attributed to him - but it is a Kasakov spoon!





here a colour pattern of Klingert to compare on a matchbox cover



Matchbox cover from Kasakov




You see how difficult it is to distinguish the two marks sometimes. Some people try to take advantage of it. Caution is advised!

Regards
Goldstein

Hi Qrt.S -

Qrt.S wrote: Gustav Klingert rarely used Latin letters in his punches. He had, however, one punch GK.. with a dot in the end!

Just to remember: Klingert, Gustav Gustavovich. Firm with 55 employees, founded 1865, active till 1917. Until about 1899 his mark was in Latin characters, thereafter in Cyrillic. For me is 1865 - 1899 (34 years) a long time span where he marked with GK. Rarely? Please explain.

Regards
Goldstein

Hi Dane111 -

Goldstein wrote:Just to remember: Klingert, Gustav Gustavovich. Firm with 55 employees, founded 1865, active till 1917. Until about 1899 his mark was in Latin characters, thereafter in Cyrillic.

your mark, in use after about 1899, in a never before seen wrong shape

the crippled assay mark, in use 1873-77! Now fetch your calculator!


You have stressed that you can read - what does this tell you?
Small help: the marks are a) wrong, b) completely nonsensical and stand out mutually - see above.
What is left?
An authentic cigar container in average niello quality, "upgraded" by an probably Polish faker and much blah blah plus a semi intellectuel smokescreen.
A waste of time and the wrong approach for your planned spectacle.
Maybe next time you try harder!

Regards
Goldstein

Gustaf Klingert

http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O9500 ... rt-gustav/

This jug (part of a tea and coffee service), was made by Gustav Klingert who ran one of the most important late 19th century enamel workshops in Moscow. The firm was founded in 1865 and had 55 employees until it closed in 1917. Examples of the enamel work was shown at a number of international exhibitions, including the Chicago World fair of 1893. These enamel products were very popular with the conservative middle and merchant classes from the mid nineteenth century until the revolution in 1917. They all follow the same formula of geometrically arranged foliage in brilliant opaque colours. It was through firm's like Gustav Klingert that the fame of Russian enamel work spread throughout Europe.

Cloisonné decoration used enamel on a metal base.The design is outlined by metal fillets (Cloisons) secured to the metal and the enclosed spaces are filled with coloured enamels which are then fired.



Other Klingert topics;

viewtopic.php?t=39091
http://925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=48233
http://925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=47378
Peter.

Hi all -

G. Klingert is is usually praised for his outstanding enamels - but his silver objects and cutlery was also famous:






One spoon always get lost......

Regards
Goldstein