Marks on silver vase

[Lessing]

I have this small vase, height 14 cm with three feet. On one of the feet is a russian hallmark, 84 and above ЯЛ. This is the only mark.I cannot find any master with these initials but an assayer named Yakov Lyapunov, St Petersburg. Is this assumption correct? Master and year stay unknown?
Regards
Lessing

[AG2012]

Hi,
Very unusual object for Russian silver and it cannot have only one mark in this location.
Secondary marks on legs,yes, but full set of marks on the vase.
In my opinion, it`s NOT Russian, regardless of ``84``.
Sorry.
Regards

[Qrt.S]

Agree with AG2012, the marks are not Russian. In addition, the marking is not either Russian. It is only a coincident that that the initials ЯЛ happens to match with the assayer Jakov Ljapunov.

[Lessing]

Thank you for your rapid answers. If not russian do you have any thoughts about the origin and age.

[Serg1975]

Porte-bouquet. (Порт-букет, posy holder, или tussie-mussie. )
Could be male and female.
This version with foldable legs - portable, when the lady was sitting or relaxing at the table from ballroom dancing - she laid out and installed this port-bouquet.
Need good photo hallmarks. Do not rush into conclusions.
Regards.

[Serg1975]

If the hallmarks is no more, then this hallmark is similar to the customs.
The subject is European, imported into Russia.
Regards.

[AG2012]

Partially struck import Kokoshnik mark ?

[Lessing]

Hello Serg 1975 and you others participiating, there is no other mark than the one showed. Do you have an estimate of the age. What does the initials stand for if not for the St Petersburg assayer?

[Serg1975]

Yes, partially struck. The form of the hallmark is similar to the customs. Let's will wait for more opinions.

[AG2012]

Take a look here for import Kokoshnik
http://www.925-1000.com/Frussia.html

Late Victorian, turn of 19th century.

[Serg1975]

I agree with AG2012.
At the Russian forum there was a discussion of such object, there was a hallmark until 1908 and a gift signature of 1909.

[Qrt.S]

I agree with AG2012.
..., there was a hallmark until 1908 and a gift signature of 1909.

??? Please explain yourself a bit better. With some imagination, maybe it could be a part of an import mark, but I have my heavy doubts. The figures are too small.

[Serg1975]

I agree with AG2012.
..., there was a hallmark until 1908 and a gift signature of 1909.

??? Please explain yourself a bit better. With some imagination, maybe it could be a part of an import mark, but I have my heavy doubts. The figures are too small.

Hello, Qrt.S!
I will try to show an example, as a working version, a hypothesis.
Unfortunately, I did not find the import customs mark for St. Petersburg of this period.
By analogy, I suppose that the object was imported into Russia from 1899-1903.
It must be taken into account that the surface is spherical and the scale is distorted. Need better photos.
1. Kokoshnik, looks to the left.
2. The initials of the assay master.
3. Guaranteed assay 84 of silver.

[Serg1975]

Now about the Russian object.
He has the hallmark of the first kokoshnik until 1908 on the body and the master's mark.
And the inscription: "To the superiors of Our superiors! July 29, 1909!"
This is to determine the time of use of the object Porte-bouquet.
Sorry for the watermarks.
Regards.

[AG2012]

Anyway, even with extrapolation (extension of the mark) it looks different from import kokoshnik.
Every import kokoshnik I have seen had the first letter of assayer`s family name (``Л``in the last example shown), not initials from the original post ``ЯЛ``. I`m always suspicious when I see the mark that has not been recorded so far.
Regards

[Serg1975]

Anyway, even with extrapolation (extension of the mark) it looks different from import kokoshnik.
Every import kokoshnik I have seen had the first letter of assayer`s family name (``Л``in the last example shown), not initials from the original post ``ЯЛ``. I`m always suspicious when I see the mark that has not been recorded so far.
Regards

Yes. But Lebedkin was in Moscow. Also the letter L.
How then to distinguish between assay offices?
It is necessary to search for the customs hallmarks of St. Petersburg of that time.
Regards.

[Qrt.S]

Yes Lebedkin was in Moscow but Moscow was not a particular import center, Riga and St. Petersburg were. In addition, as AG2012 stated it is always reason to doubts when something is not in place. In this case the frame is odd, the fineness figures' size is strange and the assayer's two initials instead as one as ususal (irrespective of this Lebedkin case). We need to find Lyapunov's import mark....if there is such a mark...I have never seen one, has anybody?

[Goldstein]

Hi -
a quick search in my collection showed this up - there are some more (though I do not collect imported silver) - but I do not like to check every object I have...
"Assaymaster" importmarks I can not remember to have seen.




Regards
Goldstein

[Lessing]

Hello to everybody taking part in the discussion. Here are some better pictures.
Regards
Lessing

[Serg1975]

Hello Lessing!
Sorry, but I do not like this hallmark.
The letters of the assay master should be about half the size of the "84".
I did not find such a hallmark (with ЯЛ) in a Russian forums.
I found a two-letter mark (questionable) and I am sure that the customs hallmarks of St. Petersburg and Moscow were different
(like in 1908-1926).
Wait for more opinions.
In any case, the subject is European, not Russian. And even a problem-free customs stamp does not change much.
Regards.