German/Prussian Silver Goblet. Pos. ca. 1700-1740. (?)

[Shangas]

I bought this at a local auction house. There, it was advertised as an "Austro-Hungarian Silver Goblet".

I posted in another forum, and some very helpful people said that it was German, hallmarked in Berlin, but that was all they could tell me.

I have researched the Berlin mark as thoroughly as I can, and right now, I'm getting a date of between 1700-1740. Before 1700, the mark was a bear in a CIRCLE, and after 1745, the mark was bear in an OVAL, but with a letter, which mine does not have. I wanted to know if I was correct? Is there any way to date it more precisely?

I also wanted to know if anybody here can decipher the purity mark? It's the only other mark on the cup and I can't read it. I know what it's SUPPOSED to look like, but...eh.

It will be a number between 12-15, and it indicates the grade of silver, according to the old German system. Anywhere from 750-930 or something like that.

Anyway. Enough babbling. Here's the cup and such...


Marks.

Cup:


300 years, give or take, and it's never been engraved...



Inside, and underside:

[AG2012]

Hi,
It looks like Berlin bear and cursive capital letter ``A`` (upside down) that was recorded to have appeared in 18th and 19th Berlin silver.
The goblet is typical 19th century (form, decor and craftsmanship).
Enthusiastic approach relying only on marks leads to wrong dating. ``How it`s made`` , decor, embossing, engraving etc. are as important as marks.
In a word, German silver made 300 years ago does not look like this.
Regards

[Shangas]

So how old is it, then? My research says it has to be at least before the 1880s. In what ways can it be dated more accurately?

[AG2012]

Hello again,
Exact dating is not possible in this particular case.
If auctioned,honest and serious description would be something like this:
``A 19th century German, possibly Berlin beaker, before 1886``.
That`s what I think.This forum is open to discussion and different opinions; let`s wait for other responses, if any.
Regards

[Joerg]

Hi
looked at Berlin marks on Theo's excellent website.
http://silberpunze.freehost.ag/index.php?id=2&sw=Berlin
The "A" on the marks from around 1830 to 1840 remind me a bit on the second mark on your goblet. Just upside down, and half punched.
What do you think?

[Shangas]

Other people I've shown it to, think it's the loth number. None of this adds up to me. The research I've done says "Bear with no letter inside it with oval" = 1700s. And all the other marks I've seen seem to back this up. And none of those A-marks are found with a bear on its own, without an additional date-letter next to it...

[dragonflywink]

While I'm out of my comfort zone here, with very limited access to my references, must agree, to my eye, this piece looks to me much more 19th than 18th century.

Will note the assumptions in the initial post regarding Berlin marks are generalized and just not quite right, and though this mark does look like a Berlin bear, it also appears worn - am also troubled by the other mark, questioning if it is a partially struck or rubbed 'A' secondary assay mark, since being struck incuse would be atypical.

~Cheryl

[Theoderich]

@dragonflywink

I think it is an other mark as the bear-mark

I have seen Your mark 3 times



I have no Idea which town it is

but there are some other towns with a bear-hallmark - like Insterburg

[dragonflywink]

Hi Theo - was really just pointing out the similarities in the odd incuse curlique marks that appear on both pieces, wasn't suggesting the town marks were the same. Have you run across marks like those before?

My eyesight is pretty poor anymore, but it's been suggested to me by someone with better vision, that there appears to be a letter to the right of the bear that might be more clear if the mark were cleaned...

~Cheryl

[Theoderich]

you are right Cheryl
there are similar "E"-marks on both objekts

[Shangas]

So what would a bear hallmark, and the letter 'E' indicate? I assume E is the date-letter?