Dresden: date letter M

[orthogonal]

Here it says M = 1841
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=18375&p=68232&hilit=Johann+Adolph+Kahle#p68232

Here it says M = 1786
http://silberpunze.freehost.ag/index.php

I cant find the vital statistics of the maker (Johann Adolph Kahle). So which one is it?

[blakstone]

The latter: 1841. (Not 1840; Theodorich's very helpful table is a little hard to read, since the text aligns with the lower edge of the image, not the top)

From what I have been able to cobble together about the 19th century Kahles from Dresden city directories and vital records, it appears the patriarch was goldsmith Carl Adolph Kahle (ca. 1839-1799), He had four sons, all gold & silversmiths:

Carl August Kahle, listed 1809-1843: born ca. Aug 1773; married 14 Jan 1801 to Christiane Friederike Ulbrichs; died 24 Apr 1843

Johann Adolph Kahle, listed 1809-1837: baptized 8 Aug 1774; married 23 May 1813 to Johanna Rosina Nitzsche; Died 16 Nov 1837

Johann Heinrich Kahle, listed 1820-1840: born ca. 1776; died 14 Dec 1840

Christian Gottlieb Kahle, listed 1816-1817: baptized 30 Jul 1782; buried 22 Jan 1816

Even though Johann Adolph Kahle died in 1837, Dresden directories show his widow, Johanna Rosine Nitzsche, operatinng the firm of J.A. Kahle at the same address, 3 Meissnergasse, until her death on 1 Oct 1850 at the age of 74. It appears your spoon was made during the steawardship of the widow Kahle.

The Kahle dynasty of silversmiths continued with Carl August's son Carl Moritz Kahle, listed 1831-1866: baptized 8 May 1802; married 26 Nov 1832 to Adolphina Elenora Claudius; died 23 Aug 1866

Hope this helps!

[orthogonal]

This was very helpful, thank you a lot!

There is a lot of differing information on the internet, which makes it quite frustrating for beginners like me.

E.g. here M = 1785
http://hallmarkwiki.com/?ShowHallmark=3628

I have spoons from the 1790s that look very much alike. Was it usual to copy old shapes in the 1840s? Or did i misinterpret the makers mark?

[Theoderich]

A 1702 A 1726 A 1750 A 1775 A 1800 A 1830 A 1855
B 1703 B 1727 B 1751 B 1776 B 1801 B 1831 B 1856
C 1704 C 1728 C 1752 C 1777 C 1802 C 1832 C 1857
D 1705 D 1729 D 1753 D 1778 D 1803 D 1833 D 1858
E 1706 E 1730 E 1754 E 1779 E 1804 E 1834 E 1859
F 1707 F 1731 F 1755 F 1780 A 1805 F 1835 F 1860
G 1708 G 1732 G 1756 G 1781 B 1806 G 1836 G 1861
H 1709 H 1733 H 1757 H 1782 C 1807 H 1837 H 1862
I 1710 I 1734 I 1758 I 1783 D 1808 I 1838 I 1863
K 1711 K 1735 K 1759 K 1784 E 1809 K 1839 K 1864
L 1712 L 1736 L 1760 L 1785 F 1810 L 1840 L 1865
M 1713 M 1737 M 1761 M 1786 G 1811 M 1841 M 1866
N 1714 N 1738 N 1762 N 1787 H 1812 N 1842 N 1867
O 1715 O 1739 O 1763 O 1788 I 1813 O 1843 O 1868
P 1716 P 1740 P 1764 P 1789 K 1814 P 1844 P 1869
Q 1717 Q 1741 Q 1765 Q 1790 L 1815 Q 1845 Q 1870
R 1718 R 1742 R 1766 R 1791 M 1816 R 1846
S 1719 S 1743 S 1767 S 1792 N 1817 S 1847
T 1720 T 1744 T 1768 T 1793 O 1818 T 1848
V 1721 V 1745 U 1769 U 1794 P 1819 U 1849
W 1722 W 1746 V 1770 V 1795 Q 1820 V 1850
X 1723 X 1747 W 1771 W 1796 R 1821 W 1851
Y 1724 Y 1748 X 1772 X 1797 S 1822 X 1852
Z 1725 Z 1749 Y 1773 Y 1798 T 1823 Y 1853
Z 1774 Z 1799 U 1824 Z 1854
V 1825
W 1826
X 1827
Y 1828
Z 1829

[Theoderich]

This was very helpful, thank you a lot!

There is a lot of differing information on the internet, which makes it quite frustrating for beginners like me.

E.g. here M = 1785
http://hallmarkwiki.com/?ShowHallmark=3628

I have spoons from the 1790s that look very much alike. Was it usual to copy old shapes in the 1840s? Or did i misinterpret the makers mark?

Your spoon is from 1841



I find the makersmark I.A.K: of Johann Adolph Kahle with an other hallmark
there is a G under crossing swords


Makersmark F.A.K??


The M-Mark of 1786:
M-Mark from 1816:
M-Mark from 1841:

But why M is 1786 but not 1785?
Rosenberg missed the U-Mark of 1769. After 1768 Rosenbergs yearsletters are not correkt.


There are some different variants of yearsletters in 18th Century.

[orthogonal]

Thank you for your patience! I really appreciate your help.

[R ingo]

I have spoons from the 1790s that look very much alike. Was it usual to copy old shapes in the 1840s? Or did i misinterpret the makers mark?

Hello orthogonal,

you are right, the shape of your spoon is indeed a 18th century shape and was not common in the 19th century (may be it was a contract work for a nostalgic person).
The only difference to the 18th century spoons from Dresden I know, is the place of the marks. Marks and assayers zigzag test line on the back side of the handle (like on your spoon) on Dresden-spoons I only know in the advanced 19th. century.

regards,
Ringo