About a Pair of Hallmarked Silver Cup and Saucer

[cagriutlu]

Hello Everybody,

I'm new on your forum. Actually I found it while searching for identification of an item on web. The item will be sold in couple of days but yet I could not identify the hallmarks on it entirely. The cup and saucer, both have the same marks and I think the maker is Petr Milyukov but the point is; item has both Soviet and Imperial Hallmarks on it. First of all, is it possible? And the other question is what does the hallmark MIP4 stands for? Thank you all for your help.

X
X

[olga_kehl]

item has both Soviet and Imperial Hallmarks on it. First of all, is it possible?

Yes, it is possible. It happens. Old silver was re-hallmerked (re-approved) again by Soviet assay administration (I almost sure MIP4 refers to Moscow inspection of assay control) after 1958.

I'm not sure about "4", but I also met variant MIP9.

Maybe somebody here have more accurate information.

[cagriutlu]

olga_kehl,
thank you very much for your quick help:)

[AG2012]

Hi,
The mark МIР4 is found as Soviet re strike ``перепробация советского времени`` on old silver.
Петр Павлович Милюков ?
Several silversmiths had the same initials (e.g. Petr Milyus).
Некоторые мастера имели именные клейма с такими инициалами (пример — Милюс Петр).
It looks authentic, although I am always suspicions with unusual irregularities close to the marks.
What are those grooves, wavy rough surface where the marks were struck?
The same set of marks is supposed to appear both on the cup and the saucer.
Regards

[cagriutlu]

AG2012,

Thank you very much for your detailed information. I'm posting 2 new images from the bottom view of the cup. I think that wavy structure is something else because it's only on the saucer. As far as I can see of course.

Regards,

X

[AG2012]

Hi,
Looks OK.
Regards

[Goldstein]

Hi cagriutlu -

Here some background informations of the manufacturer, who was also a court supplier. The variety and quality of his manufacture is remarkable.


Regards
Goldstein

[cagriutlu]

Hello Goldstein,

Thank you very much about your very useful information and for sharing these very nice pieces from your collection.

Regards.

[Qrt.S]

Nice pieces indeed, but mind my asking, Milyukov's workshop was located in Moscow. However, the kokshnik hallmark on the cigarette case I believe it is shows the Greek alpha for St Petersburg. As far as I know Milyukov didn't have any activity i St Petersburg, or did he, when? I would also be interested in knowing as from when Milyukow became a court supplier. I'd like to add that information to my records, thank you in advance.

[AG2012]

Hi,
@ Qrt.S and Goldstein
In case you have overlooked this post, take a look here.Very interesting.

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=46747

Thank you

[Goldstein]

Hi -

I would also be interested in knowing as from when Milyukow became a court supplier.

Around 1890

As far as I know Milyukov didn't have any activity i St Petersburg, or did he, when? I

This is a longer story.
I presuppose the knowledge of the political and power conditions of the time.
After 1917 no silver etc. was manufactured - the posession was a crime - one has to go back to "illegal" supplies or leftovers.
This cigarette case was made by Miljukov but was not assayed. Someone let it assay between 1918 and 1923 in St. Petersburg (see engraving) and produced the farewell gift for the much revered Ekskuzowitsch. Including diamonds, 5 ruble coin, the engraved names of all the employees and all the performed theater he managed. In this times the whole ensemble would go to Sibiria and never come back - but he must have known the right people....
There is much more to tell - but this is the wrong place. Just some more infos abot this person for a better understanding.

X

Goldstein

[olga_kehl]

Ekskuzowitsch



Goldstein

Funny ) I currently live in Taizy near this church. Thank you )

[Goldstein]

Hi olga_kehl -

unfortunately I can still not see your photo. My computer is absolute up to date and I can see all photos worldwide. Only your photos do not show up - only script - Image -.
Maybe a Russian hacker? :-)
How much must I pay? :-)




Regards
Goldstein

[Qrt.S]

@
Court supplier "around 1890" sounds strange. Usually the exact year is known. What might be the source, may I ask? In addition, Milyukov is not either listed in Skurlov's and Ivanov's Поставщткт высочайшего двора (Suppliers of the highest court) from 2002, which makes the claim even more questionable.
Moreover, never heard about such "post assaying" even less with an incorrect town mark!? What I believe is that this ПМ is one of the many to name unknown masters in St Petersburg.
The rest of the story is very interesting and a nice provenience to the cigarette case. Nonetheless, the givers took an awful risk with such a "capitalistic" gift in those years.

[AG2012]

Hi,
The comment by Lermontov Gallery in Moscow in regard of П.М (pellet) and ПМ (no pellet) marks.
1. Mark «П.М» starting from 1880 allows a relatively accurate attribution to Milyukov workshop.
(Клеймо «П.М» начиная с 1880 г. позволяет достаточно точно установить принадлежность предмета предприятию Милюкова).
2. Mark «ПМ» is difficult to attribute to their production.
(Клеймо «ПМ» затрудняет определение принадлежности изделия к этому производству).
Court supplier?
``It was not a big workshop, produced mainly cutlery and table holloware. Employed 18 workers in 1897, also 15 teenagers, possibly apprentices or hired because of lower labor cost.``
All said, I think Qrt.S is right about two issues:
1. Questionable Court supplier status
2. Many «ПМ» pieces are wrongly attributed to Milyukov workshop.
Regards

[Goldstein]

Hi Ag2012 -
Hi Qrt.S -

whenever I ask you for a source - your answer is always something like: "..believe it or not!" Now you ask for my sources....Strange attitude.
Even if it is for you like the red cloth for the bull - I am primarily a collector and not a historian or criminalist. I am in contact with many collectors worldwide - also in Russia - and there is a lively exchange of experiences. Hatefree!!! All opinions are welcome!
The most important thing is that we do not tell each other results of for decades outdated books again and again, but try to shed some light in the darkness of the unknown - by comparing what we hold in our hands. Comparing, weighing, discovering and speculating is the motto - a bold hypothesis is worth more than a ludicrous insult! Imagination instead of dull cleverness! I'm afraid you do not understand what I'm saying.
Sometimes you have to think the incredible to get further!
Do you know how many objects were assayed until 1926 with the known marks? How can you distinguish if an object was marked 1908 or 1926?
When is it Imperial or is it more correct Communistic?
Do you know what was possible in that times and what not?

Is a firm with 18 workers and 15 appretices a small firm just because one author writes "small firm" and all other authors take this formulation?
Even according to today's standards, this is not a small firm. When is a company small, medium, large? How is this defined? From whom?

Do you know the different grades of Court suppliers? Suppliers to the Imperial Court, Courts of the Grand Dukes, Appraisers of His Majesty´s Cabinet and Court Jewelers? Which one is meant when you read "Court supplier"?
The cigarette case shown is an excellent example of the circumvention of all binding laws and rules and the benevolent toleration of the authorities.
All things that normally can not exist - they exist! And not only in this example - I could show several others where applicable laws and regulations were simply ignored. Are these objects fakes because one mark is missing? How ignorant and naive!
With the kind help of our member Dad, some secrets of this cigarette case could be enlightened by documents, others are still open.
Future and investigative people will mybe solve them all. I am very curious!
Last but not least - a good read if you ever get your hands on it. An exhibition at the Catherine Palace in Tsarskoje Selo I attended in 1992.
The author: Dr. Vyacheslav Mukhin

I trust all this experts!

Regards
Goldstein

[AG2012]

Hi,
My comment was clearly related to Lermontov Gallery Moscow. and under quotation mark.The link in Russian would be against the rules of the forum.I suppose my translation was correct and I cannot be responsible for their opinion and conclusions in regard of the size of the workshop,ПМ mark and lack of court supplier status.
Regards

[Qrt.S]

@Goldstein
I bought that book in Wienna before it was withdrawn from the market for certain reasons and that was years ago (early 90thies).
Being appointed to court supplier happens on a certain year, not "around". AG2012 already showed enough evidence and that's it. Anyway, it would be good for you to read this book but I don't think you have it or do you? If you have it look for Milyukov, you want find him there and what will that proof? Having the attitude of always being right even if you are wrong is not good for anyone.

[Goldstein]

Hi -
many books - many opinions.
Small firm - big firm.
Court supplier - no court supplier.
Miljukov - not Miljukov.
My opinion - your opinion.
Right -wrong.
That´s the reality you have to live with - if you like it or not!

Goldstein

[dognose]

But that's the wonder of the forum, through such debate, slowly but surely, we get to the truth (hopefully!).

Trev.