Please help with Moscow maker ..

[claretjugs]

[quote="Qrt.S"]

the only thing i dont get is : if oleks was in moscow from 1899 - 1904 ... my mark is a total and completely wrong fake because it is 1894 ??!!

the jug is a fake , the glass is a fake, the inscription is a fake , all marks .. ? inside lemonish gilding etc etc ...
i have seen many german jugs with overstruck russian marks.. i know all german jugs .. it doesnt look german at all, the shape, the glass the engraving the inscription looks very good to me ... any oother opinions please ?
i am getting totally confused now :-(





Interesting case but for the records and in order to avoid misunderstandings. Lev Fyodorovich Oleks working periods were
Moscow 1899-1904
Kiev 1905-1914
Moscow 1915-1917
I

[Qrt.S]

One more thing. When talking about handicraft regarding silver, it is essential to keep in mind that real genuine "handicraft" ends about 1860-70 and due to the industrialization machines takes over. Genuine handicraft doesn't exist anymore. Of course some parts are still hand made but the vast majority by machines.

@clarejugs
No problem. My typo 1889-1904 was Oleks assaying period, not 1899!
However, please keep in mind what Goldstein wrote about "Russification"

[claretjugs]

[quote="Qrt.S"]ooops ... sorry i was blind .. thx for telling me

[claretjugs]

[quote="Qrt.S"]Interesting case but for the records and in order to avoid misunderstandings. Lev Fyodorovich Oleks working periods were
Moscow 1899-1904 ??!!
Kiev 1905-1914
Moscow 1915-1917
I

[olga_kehl]

BTW, engraving font of "25th April XXX" is entirely and totally old Russian. It is hard to imitate right (I think)

[olga_kehl]

Interesting case but for the records and in order to avoid misunderstandings. Lev Fyodorovich Oleks working periods were
Moscow 1899-1904
Kiev 1905-1914
Moscow 1915-1917

Look, silver spoon with Oleks assay mark of 1894

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[Ubaranda]

Hi all!
Maybe this maker?

[Qrt.S]

@clarejugs
No, you were not blind. I was sloppy and made a typo with the year should be 1889, not 1899, sorry for that. I don't think your jug is a fake, but you haven't answer my question if there are marks on the handle and spout? However, what is for sure is that it is not made by Fabergé

@olga_kehl
About the engraving. I see Cyrillic ВГН, H with a little imagination ?? (Latin VGN) in italics and 25 Априля (April) XXX (30) but I'm not sure...

Right olga. I made a typo with Oleks, see above (1889)

@Ubaranda
Sorry Ubarnda you're late ;-)))). I already assumed Vladimirov at 10.50

Anyway, the maker's mark HB in connection with a Fabergé mark was earlier assumed to belong to Nikolay Valdimirov 1894-1896 in Moscow but he never worked with Fabergé. It could be him.

[Goldstein]

[quote="claretjugs"]i see... maybe i should tell you that i have the largest claret jug collection on this planet ... i cant name my website ( but just go for claret jugs and collection ... you will,find it )
concerning your answer : the russian jug i showed has a wonderfully handmade mounting ... finely engraved etc

Hi claretjugs -

as the planet´s largest claret jugs collector (described as or proclaimed to be such by oneself, without endorsement by others) you should at least know the essentials of your trade!
For a "professional" I must have the basic knowledge of engraving. When you look at the various engravings, the quality difference must be noticed immediately. The monogram engraving is precise and professional, the annual figures and the jubilee - engraving are crooked, awkward - not professional. The conclusion that they have been added later is obvious. One can even say / see that the "engraver" was not familiar with the Cyrillic alphabet.


Oblique and distorted!


Precise and professional.

The Russian engravers were absolutely capable of producing impeccable engravings!
Here an example with a lot of "writing"....



See the difference?

Regards
Goldstein

[Goldstein]

Hi -
if it should be a Russian monogram I read the letters as B and T (skript)!




Regards
Goldstein

[olga_kehl]

One can even say / see that the "engraver" was not familiar with the Cyrillic alphabet.

I can't agree with you. I't is normal cyrillic engraving, look to the medals of that times. As Russian, I do not see any distorsions.

I could suppose, that the jug was bought from one master, and the engraving eas made later - in other.

[AG2012]

Hi,
I think it`s old orthography before latter Yat was dropped out and replaced by ``e``. Therefore modern version should be ``25 апреля``.
Regardless of ambiguous maker`s attribution I think the claret jug is genuine Russian, at least for the reason of almost impossible task to remove silver mount even if soaked in warm water for a long time, although they used some kind of water soluble organic binder mixed with powder but never plaster.It goes without saying that applying marks is possible only when the mount is removed from glass. Sometimes it gets detached due to moisture but it takes many decades to happen. When repairing, I suggest thick mixture of Scotch glue and zinc oxide, never modern synthetic glues. There are probably commercial products of this kind but I am not familiar with them
Regards

[claretjugs]

[quote="AG2012"]many many thx for your help !! btw .. no other marks on handle only the two shown are present so far ( not properly cleaned yet !!

anyway.. i learned a lot today - thx for this !

[claretjugs]

[quote="olga_kehl"]thx again Olga !! you were of great help !!!!!

[claretjugs]

[quote="Goldstein"]

Goldstein - i am grateful for any input if it makes sense ! in your case ... :-(

[Qrt.S]

many many thx for your help !! btw .. no other marks on handle only the two shown are present so far

Goldstein is right about the letters in the engraving. They are Cyrillic BТ in script/italics, not BTW. There is no W in the Cyrillic alphabet. The jug is authentic in my opinion irrespective of the missing marks on spout and handle.

[olga_kehl]

The inscription "XXX" (30 years) looks like not a personal anniversary, but the anniversary of any organization (company committee, educational institution, military unit...).

Thus, I think a person "В.Т." got this jug at the anniversary of the organization, to which he was directly related.

[Goldstein]

Hi claretjugs -




We summarize: one of many rokoko claret jugs, with dubious Russian stamps, unknown manufacturer and partly in ridiculous quality executed engravings has been found as authentic. It seems to be no problem that the strict state stamp regulations were completely ignored. Also the counterfeit stamps of L. Oleks with the ant-like St. Georg, which repeatedly appeares on the market, and which were discussed in the Forum several times, do not matter. Congratulations! An authentic Russian claret jug in Fabergé quality .....

Regards
Goldstein

[Goldstein]

Hi claretjugs -

found this authentic looking Russian claret jug - interested? Looks like ex Court´s property....Very rare!


Regards
Goldstein

[claretjugs]

[quote="Goldstein"]i have learned from life that sometimes no answer would be the best answer ..