russian cup,please help to identify

[dani]

Hi,i got this beautiful cup,please help me to identify all marks.
I saw 84 for 875/1000 silver standard and Moscow town mark and possible maker s mark PT ?!
Could be an imported item as i can.t see assay mark?
Thank you

[Goldstein]

Hi -
assayed 1880 in Moscow, maker probably (according to style and quality) supplier to the Court - Postnikov, Andrej Michail.
Source: PL page 209



Goldstein

[dani]

Thank you very much for your answer.
But,why do you think assay mark is not stamped?Is it normal?

[Goldstein]

Hi -
at that time (1880) it was a combinated mark: silver content 84 zolotniki/assay mark, townmark plus maker´s mark separat. Later it changed several times. See some examples from my collection with the different marks on stopki (so the Russian name):



Goldstein

[Qrt.S]

This kind of assay mark was introduced in 1882. It is called dvoinik (double) and was used to the end of 1898. You cannot say with certainty when the showed stopka was made but only between the mentioned time span. The master is as mentioned most likely Andrei Postnikov. The assaying year cannot therefore be 1880 but at earliest 1882.

[Goldstein]

Hi -
different books different informations....
PL page 203

1880 -

Goldstein

[AG2012]

Hi,
Qrt.S

This kind of assay mark was introduced in 1882. It is called dvoinik (double) and was used to the end of 1898.

PL says it was used in eighteen eighties, not starting with 1880. There seems to be no discrepancy between informations,the info by Qrt.S being more precise and within the period given in PL..
Regards

[Goldstein]

Hi -
to prevent this everytime starting "I say - you say" nonsense: just post a reliable source and anyone can benefit from it (by the way, it is also much more professional)!

Goldstein

[AG2012]

Hi,
Is 1882- 1898 still questionable? It was discussed here and there was a consensus for 1882 being the earliest year for this assay punch. I mean, there was no objection.
viewtopic.php?f=46&t=44355&p=127910&hilit=1882+1898#p127910

[Goldstein]

Dear AG2012 -
thank you for the remainder - somtimes I think 1880, somtimes I think 1882 is the right date. But I do not know for sure. That is why I insist (to rest in peace of mind) on an "official" declaration - it must exist somewhere. Maybe someone can point me in the right direction. Naming reliable sources is the easiest way! I do not know why it is such a mistery...

Goldstein

[Qrt.S]

No it is not questionable. It is mentioned in the assay charter, but I'm not with my books right now. I'll tell you the implementation date and assay charter later. Please be patient.

Have a nice day everybody
Qrt.S

[Qrt.S]

OK, now I'm with my books. The questioned two elements hallmark "dvoinik" was implemented in accordance with the assay charter of February 9, 1882. This hallmark was used until a new assay charter with new rules were implemented in the latter part of 1898. That is the left looking kokoshnik with small fineness figures. As from January 1, 1899 the small figures were changed to big ones. That is, however, another story.

Most likely somebody will ask for the source. That is as the already mentioned assay charter of 1882 in the Russian legislation.

[Goldstein]

Hi -
thanks for the clarification. Can you provide a copy of only this part of the charter - just for my files?

Goldstein

[Qrt.S]

@Goldstein
No problem, but the charter itself is several pages. Here is the essential part and that is all.



Hopefully you believe me now?

[Goldstein]

Hi -
many thanks! Precise photos and reliable sources are the best to prevent misunderstandings/ misinterpretations - and they save 1000 words!

Goldstein