M. Ovchinnikov and two Morozvs mark

[ChrisMc]

Need help with three marks:

M. Ovchinnikov (probably genuine) can't locate the assay master though.
http://i.imgur.com/GTmqLty.jpg

(admin edit - only one item per topic - please start new threads with your other items - see Posting Requirements )


Any help is greatly appreciated.

[dognose]

Hi,

Welcome to the Forum.

Your are far more likely to get a response if you embed your images as very few people will click on such links.

It is always helpful to post an image of the item itself.

Trev.

[ChrisMc]

Oh ok, will do.

[ChrisMc]

Just realized I can't edit the original post anymore. So I can't embed the image. But there are no adds there, just the image ;)

[Qrt.S]

One should always show a picture of the whole object not only the marks. Anyway, AP (Latin AR) could be Aleksandr Romanov assaying in Moscow 1886-94. But as mentioned show the whole object only then a more specific answer can be given.

[AG2012]

Hi,
Your image with the marks is embedded, but as said above the image of the whole object is needed to evaluate ``how it`s made``, particularly with one of the most excellent Russian silversmiths.

[Goldstein]

Hi -
in "cases" like this further photos are realy not necessary!
Just some wellknown facts to remember:



In the shown mark are all possible mistakes made:
1) a punch in this form never existed
2)The 4 sons took their father´s business over in 1888 not in 1885
3) A. Romanov started in Moscow 1886 not in 1885

And here's a photo just for prevention if the OP still surprises us with a photo of his object.


Goldstein

[ChrisMc]

It's a big 4.9kilo kovsh. Not sure about the Moscow mark now, as most M. Ovchinnikovs are St. Petersbug. But AP, as per some sources here started in moscow in 1885 and not in 1886.

[ChrisMc]

What makes me doubt it even more is the recent sale at Bonhams they even state the marks are fake.

(admin edit - see Posting Requirements )

[AG2012]

Hi,
Will you be so kind to give me the link to the thread on antik-forum.ru. Very interested what they said.
Thank you.

[ChrisMc]

They said the marks are fake and the item is new. Which it looks like. http://www.antik-forum.ru/forum/showthr ... 735&page=2 (not sure I can post it here but anyway). The marks on that items that Bonhams sold and the marks on the kovsh I posted above are very similar. In both cases I think the M. Ovchinnikov stamp was added, or... If it's real (checked with my books and it does look kinda the one he used with the imperial seal) - then the moscow stamp does not make sense as well as the 1885 AP. Then, AP/1885 and Moscow makes complete sense, and in which case the ovchinnikov mark has been added for extra value. The item does not look like a modern repro for sure, but a few things just don't add up.

[AG2012]

Hi,
Just forget what`s been said. It`s a fake. Found the seller on the site of notorious deception. Sells mostly rubbish but specialized in heavy ``Russian`` figural silver combined with semi-precious stones. Located across the pond but there is obvious ``Russian connection``.
This is his malachite ``Faberge`` inkstand.
Best wishes

[ChrisMc]

What's wrong with the stand? It's a Faberge, it must be a fake. ;)

I'm still puzzled by that kovsh. I don't think it's Ovchinnikov of course, but it does not look new or completely fake. Some spots and micro-metal break ups suggest the age is about right. Could it be one of those unmarked pieces that russian emigrants did in europe after 1917 but got stamped later on to boost the value?

[AG2012]

What's wrong with the stand?

Just look at the leg of the inkstand; they did not even bother to smooth the surface. Remember who Faberge was and everything emerging from his workshops was of the utmost quality, care was taken of the smallest detail. Cannot engage in marks on the inkstand but ``how it`s done`` is enough to tell the inkstand was made the day before yesterday.
Russian emigrants (silversmiths) might have continued to work under the legislation of countries they have settled in, but the issue has not been well documented so far (with few exceptions, e.g. Bolin). Later marking of silver they supposedly made is an unsupported assumption.
In a word, the kovsh is a modern production cast from scrap silver, god knows where.

More or less we try to apply scientific methods in conclusions based on personal experience and relevant references.Enthusiasm is not a method of judgment.
Best wishes

[ChrisMc]

Well, I've seen my fair share of imperfections in low-end Faberge items, so the inconsistencies in stamps and their application are the things I was more curious about. Hopefully you can fill me in.

As of the kovsh, I presume you've seen all the photos, so what would you say about the large sword's metal breakup (happens sometimes on very old but not adequately think metal)? As well as gilding discoloration under the second vitiaz's butt. I often look for aging signs that are difficult or impossible to fake artificially, in my humble opinion those are the few I've noticed.

[AG2012]

Hi,
1.Bellow is honest trade from Russia offered as `` Faberge replica`` in silver and green nephrite.
Stock availability depending on the number you enter (I checked up to 5).
2.Silver "Богатыри" kovsh appears on Ukraine website (.925 silver, no marks). In stock as many as you want.
A genuine Богатыри" kovsh by P. Ovchinnikov awarded to General Anton Denikin has been sold recently at the price to buy a decent house. And as expected by P. Ovchinnikov excellent details and design.The kovsh discussed here is offered at the small fraction of the value if genuine, and with the option ``make offer``. Beyond the scope of the discussion, many details are crudely executed and do not match the art of Ovchinnikov.
In regard of patina, and gilding, as well as signs of wear and age is easy-peasy to fake. Being very heavy I suspect it was solid cast and not more demanding cire perdue (lost wax) technique of casting (the mold made on whatever bronze figure available to them and assembled). The Russians call it ``КОНСТРУКТОР`` (construction).
And last, but not the least, why bothering with selling it on the site of deception instead of choosing a reputable auction house and get retired?
I think the issue has been exhausted. In my opinion the kovsh is a modern construction.


Ковш "Богатыри". Материал исполнения: зеленый нефрит. Реплика Фаберже.

Размеры:
Высота: 22см
Диаметр: 24см
Ширина: 16,5см

Вес: 730гр

[Dad]

Hi, all

For information. This ugly false punch "M. Ovchinnikov" is in different combinations...)) :