Sterling Silver Standards in Norway?

[NorskyGal]

There is a seller selling a piece of solje on an auction site claiming in several places in her listing that the item is sterling silver. However, the mark on the piece is 830s. I sent them a very nice email explaining that 830 is not sterling, and that 925 is sterling. (Sometimes people don't know this, right?)
They emailed me back with the following:

"I purchased this solje brooch from a professional well-respected and well-known jewelry appraiser as a "sterling silver" piece. (This husband and wife are frequent guests on TV's "PBS Antique's Road Show". Sterling Silver in the US is defined as containing .925 silver and .075 of other metal (usually copper, but can also be other metals). This piece was made in Norway and the standard for sterling silver in Norway is .830. There is a lot of newer (mid-century and later) Norwegian jewelry that is actually .925 but marked .830S due to tariffs, etc. I have many Norwegian relatives (many who still live in Norway) who agree with me on this as well. Here is one website of many I have used to find an answer to your comments.

(admin edit - see Posting Requirements )

Does anyone with more knowledge agree with this? Is the info on the website they've provided correct? I've asked a friend of mine who travels to Norway quite often and is knowledgeable about such things and she said this is not true.

I would say that if Norway does manufacture some items as 925 but stamps them as 830, who's to say which items are 925 and which are 830? You'd have to test each item you sell. Anyway, I simply want to know if this person has been given the right info or not. Because if what they're saying is true, I need to test a lot of solje that I've purchased over the years!

[AG2012]

Hi,
Whatever the origin of the word may be, sterling is sterling, meaning .925 fineness.

actually .925 but marked .830S

Lower taxation for lower fineness? I am really not familiar with Norwegian fiscal issues, but it does not make sense. Many Norwegian pieces are properly marked for sterling 925 S.
The lowest permitted fineness in Norway since 1891 is 830/1000.

Less than 10% of fineness really makes no difference in regard of quality.
Many import marks legislate only minimum fineness of e.g. 0.800.
Regards

[Hose_dk]

Does it matter?
830 or 925 . did you buy to recycle the silver?

The case is many Americans believe that 830 silver is plated. So you have to say its Sterling to get interest from them.
So does it realy matter?
I dont say that all American act this way, but enough do.

I once bought a 1717 piece of fully hallmarked Bergen silver - I was on a cruise- took it with me for dinner. "Is it sterling?" my reply explaining the 500 year tradition --- reaction "Oh its plated"

[NorskyGal]

Does it matter?
830 or 925 . did you buy to recycle the silver?

The case is many Americans believe that 830 silver is plated. So you have to say its Sterling to get interest from them.
So does it realy matter?
I dont say that all American act this way, but enough do.

To me it matters, yes. I don't buy to recycle. Never. IIn my experience, after collecting solje for many years, I like the "look" of a 925 piece vs an 830. An 830 piece is a bit duller in my eyes. So yes, it does matter. And I'm sure it matters to others, too, who think they are paying for 925 silver when, in fact, they are getting 830 (at least in my opinion). It is not the job of a seller to lie to potential buyers and say a piece is 925 when it's not--even if they think a buyer believes that anything other than 925 is plated.

[AG2012]

Hi again,
I do agree sellers should provide exact description of an item, including whether .830 or .925 fineness, marks interpretation etc. (as detailed as possible).
On the other hand, I see no reason to reject a bit lower fineness. Compare with Loth system in old silver. Have never heard of 12 Loth (.750) being rejected by any serious collector just because it`s 12 Loth; 13 Loth (.812) was the most common, 14 Loth (.875) and 15 Loth (.937) are seldom seen.
There is a myth about very old silver having different visual properties due to different refining process which left some gold in it, as well as other metals, in a word, refining in metallurgy was not very sophisticated in the past. But to have exact composition of silver alloy, atomic absorption spectrometry is needed. All said, I think one cannot tell the difference between .830 and .925, 12 Loth and 13 Loth etc. just based on appearance.
In conclusion, you may demand exact description by sellers, but do not be disappointed if you bought .830 and not .925. There is really no difference regarding quality of the alloy; craftsmanship, enameling etc. being much more important. And believe me, visual detection of 9.5 % difference in silver alloy composition is beyond human powers.
Kindest regards and enjoy your collection (buy any .830 piece if it`s well made and you like it).

[dragonflywink]

Eh, have heard this judgmental stereotyping of American ignorance based on a cruise ship experience before, and continue to find it somewhat insulting...

Sterling is, by definition, at least .925 silver - .830 silver is not considered sterling in Norway or any other country, despite this seller's claims of being reliably informed different by TV show experts and Norwegian relatives. Norway continues to produce the majority of their flatware in .830 silver, looking through some Norwegian manufacturer and retailer sites will show that the fineness used in production is noted, and that only those items of .925 silver are described as sterling (the Norwegian and International Convention standards can also be found online) - there's just little logic in marking a higher quality silver with a lower standard mark, especially when many feel sterling is so much more desirable (though not my opinion at all). That said, in personal experience, it's usually a pointless effort to argue with someone who has decided they're correct in their sales descriptions, they've usually made up their minds, and enough misinformation is spread through the internet that they can find some justification - just continue on with your correct knowledge and buy accordingly...

~Cheryl

[AG2012]

I am not Hose_dk`s advocate but I think his `` anecdotal stereotype`` was meant to demonstrate market oriented practice of marking silver, sterling being the only acceptable fineness for many less knowledgeable buyers or buyers with prejudices (the original poster is the proof). It`s not our fault sterling has become a synonym for ``solid silver`` and the only fineness worth collecting. Market oriented practice is seen in e.g. 925 STERLING mark, which is pleonasm. Another example are people who posted questions here whether ``lion passant`` was silver. Why was that? Because there was no STERLING, I suppose.
I hope we understand each other.

[dragonflywink]

With all due respect, I have heard this same 'cruise' story before in more depth, and it was very much directed at the ignorance of Americans - the story could have been told just as easily without pointing to a certain nationality, just ignorance of the general public worldwide regarding silver. We are an international forum, personally see no reason to direct dismissive comments toward Americans, Danes, or any other nationality. For the record, as a collector of mid 19th to 20th century Scandinavian silver, the bulk of that collection is .830 or loth silver, I have shown it to numerous other Americans unfamiliar with silver standards, and not one has ever assumed that .830 silver was plated, though some explanation was necessary.

~Cheryl

[Hose_dk]

well it did hurt when the lady said oh its plated. The conversation at the table did certainly not reflect the conversation between 2 knower of silver.
I realized that a person that seemed to be interested in culture and the history - well "does it matter" No i dont realy care, ignorance or just dont know better - doesnt matter.
Nationality - its not just that specific nationality. In Denmark noone knows anything about silver. And no-body does not mean everybody are anything, just stating that the marked of silver in Denmark is very limited. No common interest.

Bear in mind I have never stated that seller should tell a lie. I am just so much of a realist that when seller say sterling - it could be 800 or 830. But on the other hand same person also call French silver for sterling - and dont know that its better than sterling 935. Its not to cheat - the majority just dont know better.

I did not mean to say that your silver item not in sterling is a bad product. In my mind the craftman ship. The age, the history, the patina is what matters.
I and you dont have to educate a uneducated seller. That is impossible. In my opinion one has to buy an item that you Desires. items that match your collection.
I have just been cheated by an Italian - no offence to the Italians, I dont say that all Italian dealer cheat. I dont even say that seller of my purchase was commiting a criminal offence. Ontill this day - my italian seller still belives that my salt cellers are 1812 to 1861. He cannot accept my new information - he is still in the belief that the 800 mark was set to tell that its silver. He never told me whether he dont know when 800 was introduced or set afterwards. But still next time in Rome I might buy from him again. He not a bad man - he just dont know. His expertice is huge among antiques. His knowledge of silver - well! So next time I will be more on my alert.

So I shall never mention the nationality when writing about my cruise - but the story did take place.

[Joerg]

Reading this I has a lot of thoughts. I hope I am not increasing confusion.
First, the original question of the Definition of stering in Norway is finished, 830 is not Sterling. But we deal with feelings, human nature and pride. What do you want from the expert? Do you want him to confess "I was wrong, you were right, you are the expert, I am not". Consider, this is really hard to admit. I experience this myself, it hurts really much if I comment an item in this Forum and someone else proofs me wrong. You do not Need to go for unconditional surrender from the "expert". You know what is right, this shall do.
Second, Sterling is clearly defined, but languages and meaning also Change. I myself use sometimes the word Sterling while explaining the middle Europe "800" to "Outsiders". It simplifies things a lot. I agree we often see the word Sterling when the word "massive" would be more correct. Perfect would be "the material is an alloy with a high silver Content", but Sterling is simpler, though "incorrect".
Third, yes, it simplifies things to silver manufacturer if they produce 925. Sterling is widely accepted and a neraly a subsitute word for massive silver. Again, simplifies, here selling of silver items.
And last: Online aution sellers want to sell. You see many items labeled with both "800 / 925", just to raise Attention. And even more often you find Statements like "real silver" or similar for silverplated items. It is useless to start a discussion here. Ignore texts in auctons, exclusively go for high Resolution Pictures. If the Pictures are clear, no Need to correct the seller. However, interfere if the seller is purposeful misleading.

I recently wrote a polite mail to a seller which stated on his 84 silverplated spoons from France they are Russian 84 Zolotnik. (It is 84, so it is 875 Russian silver....) Explained the difference. I expected some Kind of "thank you", however, the only Thing I got were insults. This as an example to Support my first Statement.
Regards, Jörg

[Aguest]

I just thought 830 S was traditional, kind of like a point of National pride that they use the standard of 830. Sure, the Norwegian silversmiths could have used 925 like British Sterling or 800 like European Silversmiths, but they go with 830 because it is a distinguishing characteristic of Norway. Whenever I see 830 S marked on a spoon, I immediately assume Norway and I am proud of the Norway silversmiths for their choice of 830 as it honors generations of silversmiths who worked in 830.

Also, these spoons were really important to prepare meals, and a 925 spoon can be a bit softer than an 830 spoon. I have some 800 serving spoons from Austria-Hungary, and I even have a lower percentage 750 spoon from Austria-Hungary, and they are extremely difficult to dent. I think these spoons could last for 100 years in a kitchen without a dent, while a sterling spoon would inevitably be dented or at least thinned out. Even coin silver spoons, 900 from America, often have dents and dings that really make them not useable anymore.

I love 830 S Spoons, especially the enameled spoons, and the Swedish wedding spoons with the loops on them which are sometimes 830. I don't really have a narrow field of collecting, though, I really enjoy learning about every different country and their different traditions.

[Hose_dk]

830 origin is Denmark. Norway was part of Denmark until the napoleon ara. Where Norway was separated from Denmark. The Danish standard 13½ lod origins back several hundreds years. Same standard as the coin.
Fist legislation dates back to 1429 from the king Erik af Pommeren
When Denmark separated the silver standard with 4 marks - same continued in Norway.

Our history has been under influence of the Netherlands 15 - 1600
Germany - the Danish king was also duke of large parts of (what today is) Northern Germany. some influence fróm these places.
By the way Erik af Pommeren had his roots in what today is Poland.

And of course we dont trow away 600 years of culture.
Sterling is widely used - in both Denmark and Norway, but we have the tradition.
In Denmark - we use the term "3 tårnet sølv" on sterling items. Normally we dont use the term sterling but 3-towers whether its 925 or 830 (or 800 Germany has a tradition, as old as the Danish, of 800 as standard)

But again - the original question the seller should not confuse, but tell the correct.