Please help me identify these silver hallmarks of pair glasses

[elcid51]

Please help me identify these silver hallmarks of pair glasses.
Thanks, Guido

[Qrt.S]

Sorry, not silver! These Soviet made "podstakanniks" i.e. tea glass holders are made of an alloy of copper( M), nickel (H) and zinc (Ц), possibly silver plated. The alloy is also known as "German Silver" or "Nickel Silver". The next word "ЦЕНА" means "price" and it is 2 rubles 59 kopek. They are made during the latter half of 20th. century, but before 1992.

[elcid51]

Hello Qrt.S,
Many Thanks I bought them in a French auction house, I will claim.
Thanks again, best regards,
Guido

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[Qrt.S]

You are welcome. The marks are not Soviet silver marks but made in Soviet as I already mentioned. When you complain to the auction house. It would be interesting for me to know on what basis the auction house claimed the holders to be made of silver.
Would you mind telling us their "explanation" here. Thank you in advance.

[oel]

Hi,

French auction houses/sellers often use terms like; (925) argent massif vermeil for silver gilded/silver plated. However some buyers believe it/translate it to solid silver. Rule of tumbs know your hallmarks.

Best,

Oel.

[AG2012]

That was unscrupulous description of a lot. Even sellers in flea markets would refund in cases like this. They may be wrong with the attribution or whatever, but the minimum standard is ``silver should be silver, not silverplate, white metal etc. ``
Besides, what`s the exact meaning of ``argent massif ``in French? I thought it was ``solid silver``.Compared to German ``Massiv``meaning ``nicht nur an der Oberfläche, sondern ganz aus dem gleichen Material bestehend``(Not only on the surface but entirely consisting of the same material).
Please, keep us informed.
Kindest regards

[JayT]

Hello all
Here are some terms used to describe French silver at auction or at dealers:
argent massif must be at least 800 standard silver. You can tell the silver standard by the shape of the mark. For example, post-1838, Minerva in a barrel-shaped reserve is 800 standard; in an octagonal-shaped reserve is 950 standard, until 1972 when France adopted the 925 standard in accordance with the EU.
vermeil is gold-plated argent massif, thus 800 or higher standard silver.
métal is nickel silver. Sometimes you see it as maillechort which is French for nickel silver
métal argenté is silver plated nickel silver.
métal doré is bronzed nickel silver.

French legislation is quite strict in this regard. Where French auctioneers get confused is with non-French silver.

Hope this helps a bit.

[oel]

Hi JayT,

Thank you very much for your excellent explanation.

Best,

Peter

[JayT]

My pleasure Peter.

[elcid51]

Thank you all for the explanations but the description of the auction house was translated into English:
"pair of mugs rimmed silver hallmark swan - Russian work of the twentieth century - Weight 353 grams"
Berst regards, Guido

[JayT]

Hello Elcid
The swan mark denotes second hand silver sold at public auction. The auction house must send silver without French marks to be assayed. In your case the assayer didn't do a good job, affixing a silver mark to plated or just nickel silver. Pretty shocking. Take-away lesson: always ask what the marks are when buying at auction if you can't inspect the item yourself. Drouot should refund your money, but it will likely take a while. Good luck.

[dognose]

I wonder in this case if the "Swan" mark is referring to the Capercaillie trade mark?

Trev.

[elcid51]

Hello Jay T, thanks again I agree with you but with online shopping happens even worse ...
Thans, Guido
P.S. the swan is circled in the picture

[dognose]

Hi Guido,

Can you clarify that the Swan mark, that you enclosed in red, is also struck on to the holders in addition to the marks you have shown, and you are not referring the mark shown in your original mark image.

Trev.

[elcid51]

Hi Trev.,
the hallmark with the swan in an oval is located under the handle of mugs and is very small and is not that what the photograph has already been published.
Tomorrow I try to photograph it and put it in the forum.
Best regards,
Guido

[dognose]

Hi Guido,

Thank you for the clarification.

Trev.

[Goldstein]

Hi -
here the "swan" mark and the erased original mark on a Russian napkin ring:




source coll.Goldstein

Goldstein

[dognose]

I just looked up the Kolchugino website, who are the actual makers of Guido's item, and they still produce these glass-holders today.



Trev.

[elcid51]

Goodmorning everyone,
here are the pictures of the mugs where you see the swan position and an enlargement of the same swan.
Best regards,
Guido

[elcid51]

Sorry I forgot the photograph, made anonymous for privacy reasons, with the original description.
Greetings,
Guido