Help appreciated with a silver gilt cup

[excalibur1661]

Greetings board members,

I have this standing cup that was presented in 1867, and the accompanying description of the cup at that time referred to it as an "Antique Silver Cup". Given that the presenters were in the antique trade they must have known that to qualify as an antique an object has to be over 100 years old.

I have checked a number of on-line sites, and I thought that the crossed keys resembled the Riga regions and the lion mark was similar to the Brunswick region of Germany. The maker's mark might be CB or GB, perhaps on of the Brenners.

I greatly appreciate your expert opinion as always.

Kind regards,

Fred

[Theoderich]

this pseudomarks are known
http://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=35659

[excalibur1661]

this pseudomarks are known
http://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=35659

Thank you for your reply.

I noticed that mention was made of J. Bossard of Lucerne in reference to the marks on the spoons. I was wondering if the marks on the spoons were in fact those of Bossard's.

Thank you.

Kind regards,

Fred

[Theoderich]

this pseudomarks are known
http://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=35659

Thank you for your reply.

I noticed that mention was made of J. Bossard of Lucerne in reference to the marks on the spoons. I was wondering if the marks on the spoons were in fact those of Bossard's.

Thank you.

Kind regards,

Fred

Dear Fred,
I think it is not Bossard, but maybe a Dutch company.

[oel]

Hi,

Those are not Dutch pseudo mark, to my knowledge, the 12 lot reference are not seen in combination with Dutch pseudo marks. I believe it to be in the Hanau antique style silver.

Best,

Peter

[Joerg]

I was in London this summer, and of course visited the London Silver Vaults. On a pair of candle sticks I noticed this very same mark, too. It was together with a "G" mark the dealer attributed to Sank Gallen, Switzerland. Unfortunately I had no decent camera with me, so no picture taken.

I agree with Theo, we have no confirmation of the maker yet. But the items with this mark are piling up. Sooner or later we will know.
Can you provide us more Information of this 1867 present description? Maybe pictures from the original documents? Were was this presented? In Germany? To whom...

Regards

Jörg

[excalibur1661]

Greetings,

Thank you for your comments.

It was presented to an English man in London on the occasion of his 25th wedding anniversary. And in digital archive, the very same cup is photographed in 1867, and is referred to as an "Antique Silver Cup". And given that the person to whom it was presented is a noted English antiquary, I would imagine that his family members would not have referred to the cup as antique if it were not over one hundred years old.

Kind regards,

Fred

[excalibur1661]

Hello,

Here are the pictures.






On the second page reference is made to this cup as "an silver gilt cup". The inscription on the cup is the same as the one from the document.

Thank you.

Kind regards,

Fred

[excalibur1661]

Dear Joreg,

I did post the pictures of the cup from 1867. However, I was neglectful at the time of posting them to click "Reply" to your older post. Perhaps, it failed to be brought to your kind attention.

Thank you.

Kind regards,

Fred

[Joerg]

Hi
I saw your post, just it does not simplify the case. These are the facts:
These are pseudomarks. When presented, the cup was new.
Interpretation:
I would not bother too much on the "antique" attibuted to it. I can also mean "in an antique style".
I wonder how the cup was imported into UK without import hallmarking? Maybe some colleagues may contribute with details on the import regulations for continental silver.
I was hoping the cup was presented in Germany or Switzerland. We still have no maker, nor town, nor country. However, Hanau is definitely a good possibility.

[excalibur1661]

Hi Joerg,

Thank you for your reply. Your comments made me look up UK's regulations on imported silver. There was an 1842 regulation that required all imported gold and silver be assayed in Britain (i.e., the products must conform to British standards of content purity). In addition to this, in 1867, all imported gold and silver were required to be marked with an additional mark, F, so purchasers would know they were not made in Britain given the fact that since 1842 they were assayed in Britain.

Since the cup was purchased and presented in London after these regulations; we can conclude that it was made prior to the first regulation's date.

Thank you.

Kind regards,

Fred

[agphile]

I am not so sure we can come to this conclusion. It seems to me quite probable that the cup was smuggled into England in the 1860s with the aim of passing it off as an antique - many "experts" were less knowledgeable, or more gullible, back then and this sort of thing did go on.

[oel]

Hi Fred,

To my knowledge a silver gift requires no official hallmarks only imported silver items for the trade needed to be fully marked according to British hallmark rules. A silver item without official British hallmarks cannot be sold in the UK as silver but it can be sold as white metal. A German expat (diplomat) living in the UK could have brought it with him from Germany.

Best,

Peter

[excalibur1661]

Greetings Peter,

Thank you for your kind reply.

Yes, perhaps it was brought into UK as a gift or personal effect not to be offered for sale. Yet, I am still confused about the provisions that this 1842 Customs Act should have had built in on such exceptions. Because somewhere down the line these gifts or personal effect items could have been sold to a third party.

Best wishes,

Fred

[excalibur1661]

I was in London this summer, and of course visited the London Silver Vaults. On a pair of candle sticks I noticed this very same mark, too. It was together with a "G" mark the dealer attributed to Sank Gallen, Switzerland. Unfortunately I had no decent camera with me, so no picture taken.

I agree with Theo, we have no confirmation of the maker yet. But the items with this mark are piling up. Sooner or later we will know.
Can you provide us more Information of this 1867 present description? Maybe pictures from the original documents? Were was this presented? In Germany? To whom...

Regards

Jörg

Dear Goerg,

Regarding the candlestick's marks, I googled Swiss candlesticks and sure enough they came up with an expired listing on one of the on-line markets. The pictures are still there. You are quite right. The maker's mark is exactly the same as the one on this cup.

Based on your expert opinion, could the cup be Swiss in origin and the other two marks be import marks, say, for Stuttgart?

Thank you.

Best regards,

Fred