Initials on Cork Silver

[Argentum2]

Help would be appreciated in identifying the initials "JCE" which are frequently found on items of Cork silver.

The example shown here is on a basting spoon by Carden Terry and dates from c. 1790.

[dognose]

Hi Argentum,

"JCE" which are frequently found on items of Cork silver

Do you recall what type of silverware? Was it usually on spoons?

Trev.

[Argentum2]

It is on a spoon.

[Argentum2]

The initials are almost always (as far as I can see) on fat ware.

[dognose]

Well, this is a absolute shot in the dark.... as strange as it may seem today, it was not uncommon for the best hostelries at this time to use silver flatware. One of the most well-known Inns in Cork in the late 18th/early 19th century was the Crown Tavern, the owner being one John Ellis.

It would be interesting to know what John Ellis's second initial was?

As stated, this is a absolute shot in the dark!

Trev.

[Argentum2]

This is a most interesting proposition and may explain the absence of any heraldic devices.

In some instances, initials accompany crests. This allows for a cross referencing or else for the exclusion of some possibilities where an heraldic device can be attributed to more than one family.

Many thanks.

[nobilityhouse]

I see a superscript M above the C before the E. Good luck with this.

[Argentum2]

I see a superscript M above the C before the E. Good luck with this.

You are perfectly correct. Many thanks for that.

[Argentum2]

As an example of a Cork piece of silver with a crest and initials, a soup ladle by Carden Terry, from about 1780, illustrates an example of a fairly positive identification.

The crest -which apparently is pseudo and excluded from Burke's General Armory - would appear to be that of the Putland family of Blarney and Carrignabfear, Co. Cork, of Bray, Co. Wicklow and of Dublin (the National Botanic Gardens now occupying part of one of their suburban estates).

On 22 August 1703 Thomas Putland purchased at auction at Chichester House,College Green, Dublin, 4,000 acres in Blarney and Whitechurch for £9,463-16-0 from the confiscated estates of Donagh, Earl of Clancarthy and Dominick Sarsfield of Whitechurch.

His grandson, John Putland, assumed a coat of arms and a crest of an elephant's head. Among his many commercial ventures was the Smock Alley theatre in Dublin. By 1749, the catalogue of his library listed some 3,935 books. In 1738 he married Catherine Moore of Ross Carbery and by 1747 was High Sheriff of Dublin. He died in 1773 leaving his son, George (1745-1811), as his successor, and six daughters.

In 1779, George married Kitty Freke Evans, daughter of the 2nd Baron Carbery. By this time, he had prospered in his commercial enterprises and moved to a new house to 64 Lower Mount Street in Dublin, just off of fashionable Merrion Square, then being built . A period of even greater prosperity followed.

His nephew, John, married a daughter of Captain Bligh of the Bounty.

The soup ladle, coincides with the period of particular prosperity enjoyed by George Putland I.


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[Traintime]

You've got my interest now! That small "v" shape to the left of the C and below the super M did not seem right. Looking at old pen lettering guides I have come the the conclusion that the initialing here is H before E with super M intertwined, not JCE. This would be consistent with engraving for a married couple using the last name initial to tie together the two first name initials, a practice still in use. Further, J's are often designed basically like the left leg of the H to simplify creating the style, and generally extend below the other letters. A style called " Divinity" shows all these aspects very well. C's would almost never have this little hash sticking out of their left. Finally, this would give more balance to the centering of the super M.

[silverly]

...the initialing here is H before E with super M intertwinedM....

This is also my interpretation of these initials.

[Argentum2]

You've got my interest now! That small "v" shape to the left of the C and below the super M did not seem right. Looking at old pen lettering guides I have come the the conclusion that the initialing here is H before E with super M intertwined, not JCE. This would be consistent with engraving for a married couple using the last name initial to tie together the two first name initials, a practice still in use. Further, J's are often designed basically like the left leg of the H to simplify creating the style, and generally extend below the other letters. A style called " Divinity" shows all these aspects very well. C's would almost never have this little hash sticking out of their left. Finally, this would give more balance to the centering of the super M.

Very many thanks traintime. Looking at it again, I think you are perfectly correct.

[nobilityhouse]

I read these initials as J Mc E such as for John McEnroe. Anyway, that's my take on it. Owen.

[Argentum2]

Here we have an interesting set of engraved initials. It is to be found on what appears to have been an extensive silver service produced by John Nicholson of Cork about 1790. At least four table spoons and two serving spoons (13'' long) are known to have survived from it. The serving spoons were in the collection of Dr. Jeremy Martin Griffin up to its dispersal in 2010 (Drawaett's, London, 3 June 2010, lot 40, catalogued by Ian Pickford). The other items from the service appear to have come on the market over a period of time and were separated from the serving spoons.

The initials appear in a distinctive matt reserve. An "A" (possibly later) appears as a superscript on some of the items but not on others. The initials seem to be "JH" although the letters have also been read as "TH".


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[bstaunto]

This could be an interesting project!

Does anyone keep a database on initials and crest on Irish provincial silver?

I know has been done on early Australian silver and has turned up some interesting connections.

Ben