spider or fleur de lis hallmark on spoon

[ninothedog]

Hi - This spoon was found in a box of silver left to us by a friend. I can't figure out anything about it and I'm not even sure it is silver (although our friend was unlikely to keep junk.) It is very soft metal and has a crack and bend along the stem. The hallmark looks a little like a fleur de lis or a spider inside a circle. It probably isn't French, but the fleur de lis shape suggested I inquire here. Any insights would be welcome. Thanks. - Nino

Spoon is 5-7/8" long and weighs 32 grams.

[agphile]

I suspect this is likely to be a modern, base metal replica of an early spoon. English silver spoons with this bowl shape and a "wrythen knop" finial are relatively rare survivors from the late 15th to early 16th centuries and various fleur de lis punches have been used as (unidentified) town or maker's marks on early silver.

I can't judge from a photo whether the metal might actually be silver. The lack of wear on the mark suggests the spoon is not too old but it would take a more detailed look to see how well it compares with spoons of the period, e.g. how the finial is attached to the stem, the cross-section of the stem, the drop on the back of the bowl and the depth of the bowl. If original, it would be a desirable item!

[agphile]

I should have proof-read the above a bit better. It should have referred to "late 15th to early 17th centuries" and I didn't mean to imply that the wrythen knop is uniquely English. I don't know to what extent it may have featured on spoons in mainland Europe.

[ninothedog]

Thank you, Agphile, for your comments. I was able to research "wrythen knop," from your comments, and understand what you mean by desirable. Our friend was a wealthy art collector and would have been disdainful of a copy or reproduction, but he could have been fooled and the piece was not in with valuable items. Concerning the metal, I don't know. It does not have the luster of most silver, but feels like silver (tactilely.) It is softer and warmer to the touch than any pewter I have to compare it to and it doesn't feel heavy enough to be lead. As it happens, I'm going to see a silversmith tomorrow to pick up some repaired pieces and maybe he can help me identify the composition. I suspect you're right that it's some base metal.
To me, the hallmark does look worn, but I'm no expert. There aren't any other marks I can see. - The bowl is 1-3/4" wide x 2-1/4" long x 1/8" deep (shallow, almost a paddle.) The hallmark is 3/16" in diameter. The stem is a slightly flattened hexagon in cross-section and dies into the bowl smoothly, with no transition detail. The finial is about 7/16" long x 5/16" wide with no evident seam where it connects to the stem. I just noticed that each of the 6 sides of the stem blends smoothly into one of the diagonal twists around the finial. - I imagine a reproduction would be faithful in all these details.
Here are a couple more pictures. I know you can't make any determinations via the internet, but I include the pictures anyway for a more complete description. - Nino

[agphile]

I confess I would be surprised if this turns out to be a genuine early spoon rather than a replica, though pleased for you and pleased to have seen it, at least in illustrations. It might help if I say a bit more about how your spoon compares with early English examples that I am aware of.

The spoons should be marked in the bowl with a leopard’s head for London, or with some other town or maker’s mark in the provinces. The additional London marks would be on the back of the stem near the bowl but provincial spoons would not necessarily have further marks on the stem. When I commented on the lack of wear on your fleur de lis mark, I only meant to imply less wear than might be expected after 400 or 500 years. I don’t recognise this particular fleur de lis punch, but I regularly come across marks I don’t recognise and can’t trace in my reference books. The mark points to provincial but doesn’t really help decide between original or replica

The bowl and stem should be hand-raised from a single piece of silver, the stem having a hexagonal cross-section. If they appear to be cast, and the mark to be part of the casting rather than punched, we are definitely not looking at an early spoon. From the look of the metal’s surface in your photos I do have a suspicion this may be a casting.

The finial, however, should be cast and soldered to the stem. If my eyes do not deceive me, there is a triangular area below your finial that might mean it was soldered into a notch of this shape. This would be normal for London spoons but unusual in the provinces where a lap joint was most commonly used. However, there are exceptions, perhaps as a result of a London trained craftsman moving to work in the provinces.

The wrythen finials I know of all include some sort of small pediment, lacking on your spoon, and are a bit different in form from yours - their high relief twists are wider and their valleys narrower, if you see what I mean. This would give me a bit of pause before I became too excited about your spoon.

I would normally expect to see a v-shaped drop or heel where the stem joins the back of the bowl. It is missing on your spoon, but I do know of one old wrythen top spoon where this is also the case so cannot claim this is diagnostic.

So, while none of this is definitive, I do see a number of question marks. I’ll be interested to learn what your silversmith made of it.

[oel]

Hi,

Perhaps some useful images to visualize Agphile's great explanation:

Wrythen knop spoon whit a small pediment.


The spoons should be marked in the bowl with a leopard’s head for London, or with some other town or maker’s mark in the provinces.

The additional London marks would be on the back of the stem near the bowl but provincial spoons would not necessarily have further marks on the stem.

V-shaped drop or heel where the stem joins the back of the bowl.
http://www.mfa.org/collections/object/w ... poon-59387


Oel.

[agphile]

Many thanks Oel - your images make the points much more clearly than my words alone. Now why wasn't I bright enough to think of this?

[ninothedog]

Hi agphile and oel, and thanks for the additional information and pictures. I doubt a treasure has fallen into our hands, but will continue to fantasize about it for a while longer. Unfortunately, I was busy today and forgot to go to the silversmith. Hopefully I'll remember Monday. Interestingly, I just found the exact same spoon in someone's flickr feed, which makes me feel it's even more likely to be a reproduction. See URL below. The discussion following is a simpler version of what we have said here. -- I will let you know what the smith has to say. I'll ask him about the metal and if it looks cast or shaped by hand. Also about the attachment of the finial. Anything else? -- Thanks again.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/hiddenhistory/3400166548/

just the image:
(We have had our spoon since 2002, so this 2009 picture is not of the same spoon.)

[ninothedog]

Well, the silversmith didn't have much to say, except that it's pewter. Not his specialty.

[dragonflywink]

This pewter spoon, with its fleur-de-lis touchmark, is one sold in the shop at the Mary Rose Museum in Portsmouth, a replica of the recovered spoon shown below.

~Cheryl

[ninothedog]

That sure looks like it, Cheryl. Thanks.