Vesta case

[Zolotnik]

Hi all -
Who is the maker I.H from St. Peterburg?




any help welcome.

Regards
Zolotnik

[Qrt.S]

I gather you don't have the assayer's mark, which is a bit strange. If you have it please show it. However, it makes me wonder why it is missing? (maybe a private order?). Anyway, the round town mark for St Petersburg was used around 1826-1860/76 after that the fineness mark was added to the town mark. The fineness mark seems to be one stamp meaning that we are close to mid 1800 century. Earlier the two fineness figures were two separate stamps.
During that time span I have 6 prospects whose marks are not known. Please note that the letter J was often superseded with I. Unfortunately, not a single master with a forename beginning with I.

The possible prospects:;

1. Jonas Hacklin 1834-1876
2. Johan Haimelin 1850-1879
3. Johan Hallardt 1839-1879
4. Johan Hedelius 1825-1842
5. Johan Hellström 1847-1866
6. Joseph Henriksson 1856-1881

I have no idea who of those it could be if any, sorry.

[Zolotnik]

Please note that the letter J was often superseded with I.

Thank you very much for this news - always the little head teacher!

There are no other marks. I think it is an "upgrade". The belt with buckle is an additional give away - this was never used on authentic objects, not aRussian style. Very common in France, England and Germany. Often seen cigarette cases with this emblem - always fakes.

[numis.geneve]

We are not here to discuss fakes- remember . There is someone on this forum who always mentions this.(:

[Zolotnik]

Hi -
sometimes it is important to warn members like you (with little experience but apparently too much money) and show them why some object is a fake - before the purchase.
You are free to ignore evidence of this type.....

[Qrt.S]

@Zolotnik
If you know what it is, why do you ask what it is ??????

[Zolotnik]

If I am not 100% sure - I ask! This forum is not the only place to get informations. If it disturbs you that I exchange informations - do not read. As a noncollector this information concernes you not anyway.

[oel]

Hi Zolotnik,

Vesta case; hinged, striker part, could you show? Are detachable parts hallmarked?

Oel.

[Zolotnik]

Hi oel -
no other marks - only the shown.

Regards
Zolotnik

[Qrt.S]

Only one answer. It is a fake but we don't discuss fakes here...

[Zolotnik]

Negative as always.
Try to be happy and enjoy your life! Isn´t it you who always answer the fake posts first?
By the way - I did not discuss a fake - I just placed a warning for others. You did not recognice it as a fake - If I had taken you serious ( you are the mega expert - I am only a lowly collector) I would have made a big mistake.
That is the reason why I ask questions or seek support though I really know what I am doing - sometimes I am uncertain (the greedy collector in me tell me: Take it!), but my brain goes on fake alert and says: NO! Only dumb persons have no questions...

So, slow down and try to be more polite. Nobody is attacking you - we all hang ecstatic on your lips and wait humbly for your wise and precise statements. Russian silver without you - just unthinkable.

[Qrt.S]

Thanks for the nice words but please don't talk politeness to me. Nonetheless, I find your vesta case from your collection very interesting. I have something in my mind regarding it, but first I need to see the inside and outside bottom of it. Would you kindly show the requested photos. You see there are some anomalies in Russian marking procedures. Thank you in advance.

[Zolotnik]

As I said before - there are no other marks. First I thought it was an early object (1740) from Hoppe, Johan Henrik PL# 1717. But than my brain starts to work: matches were invented arond 1840, successful made safety matches (white phosforus) showed up 1855 (by the Swedish ingenieur John Edward Lundström) . Before this time matches were very dangerous and ignited often in your trouser pockets, beside that they used red phosforus - a deadly and unhealthy mixture. In that time the name "match safe" was created. Imagine what happened when 10 or more matches ignited in your trouser pocket.....
The overal condition and style does not fit to the assumed early date, the belt with a buckle was never used in Russia as decoration - only in European countries. A pill box? With striker plate? Conclusion: not Russian but something "fingered", in other words a fake. Origin: France, England, Austria or Germany.
My decision: hands off
Showing it in the forum is not to mislead others or show off but to create an certain educational effect. One can learn from the mistakes of others - if you are bright enough to realise the purpose.
That is all.
Maybe you realized that I try to show some different Russian objects to the audience - objects you seldom or never see in the wild or own - for a better understanding. That is not for my ego - I live with these things every day - it is for members who want to learn. Instead of some enthusiasm it mostly ends in a cross-interrogation or/and subjective comments. Maybe it's incomprehension or envy - I do not know. Maybe I should stop and we go back to discuss the every day shown primitive fakes.
Maybe you think about what you can do to make this a more professional and better forum.

[Qrt.S]

I didn't ask for marks but to see the inside and the outside bottom, please show them, thank you!
I also perfectly understand your purpose and as well many other things that has come to my attention.

Happy New Year
Qrt.S

[Zolotnik]

Sorry, but the object is no longer in my posession.

[Qrt.S]

That's what I thought...

[AG2012]

The case is still available :-)
``This is an antique solid silver case - not sure if this is a cigarette or vesta case - it is approx 8cm long, 5.5cm wide and 2cm deep. The case is from Russia and bears the hallmark for Moscow, BC 1870 for Viktor Vasilyevich Savinsky and IH. The fastener has been broken and is missing and the case has alot of dents.``

[Qrt.S]

Hi oel -
no other marks - only the shown.

Regards
Zolotnik

Sorry, but the object is no longer in my possession.

A really interesting case this case! Thank you for showing it AG2012. Rather clear assaying mark I would say. Now I have to withdraw my statement of it being a fake, it is not when all necessary marks are shown. We can also exclude number 4 and 5 from my list of prospected makers.
Anything to say Zolotnik?

[AG2012]

This guilloche work without enamel was done with engine rose lathe (engine turning). Very common in UK. Not going to engage in marks, but the overall style and décor does not look Russian to me. Just my opinion based on décor.

[Zolotnik]

Hi -
as you know I am collectig since some years and had built up some connections.They know what I am looking for and offer me for me interesting stuff. The negotiations are by email. I only got one photo and it was described as Vesta case. I already told why I was initially interested- but soon lost interest reasons known. In reality it is not a cigarette case, vesta case, pill box etc. but a purse/portemonnaie (marks outside) with the liner missing. The belt with buckle-emblem was added later in a non - Russian technique - Russians would have riveted it.
With more photos the actual purpose would have been clear. And yes it is no Fake!

Regards
Zolotnik