Unknown maker´s mark?

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Zolotnik
Posts: 1024
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:35 am
Location: Germany

Unknown maker´s mark?

Postby Zolotnik » Wed Dec 10, 2014 4:19 pm

Hi all -
I have several spoons with a "Bear"- mark I can not locate to a certain firm (Berndorfer???) or office.
One fact is clear, the spoons have been imported to Russia (Latvia was at that time unde Russian rule).

Here the photos and description of spoon 1:
Imported via St. Petersburg as "foreign product", 84 Zolotniki = 875/1000, sold by Court jeweller Brothers Gratschev, the actual silver content is unknown, plus the bear-mark (maker?)

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Here the photos and description of spoon 2:
Imported via Riga as "foreign product", 84 Zolotniki = 875/1000, Rumanian silver content mark for 800/1000 (!), probably a kind of import mark, plus the bear-mark (maker?).

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Any help welcome!

Regards
Zolotnik

Qrt.S
contributor
Posts: 3312
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:32 am
Location: Helsinki Finland

Re: Unknown maker´s mark?

Postby Qrt.S » Sun Dec 14, 2014 2:43 pm

The dolphin mark of spoon 2 is not an import mark- It is the Romanian ordinary silver hallmark for 800/1000 used 1906-1926. The bear is obviously the maker's mark. Unfortunately I have no sources of Romanian makers.

Zolotnik
Posts: 1024
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:35 am
Location: Germany

Re: Unknown maker´s mark?

Postby Zolotnik » Sun Dec 14, 2014 3:06 pm

Zolotnik wrote:Rumanian silver content mark for 800/1000 (!), probably a kind of import mark,


Just try to read and understand what is written! Rumania has no import mark!

Qrt.S
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Re: Unknown maker´s mark?

Postby Qrt.S » Sun Dec 14, 2014 4:12 pm

No it hasn't so kindly reread your own text and reconsider what what it means. In other words. "...Romanian content mark..., probably a kind of import mark..." To that I responded that it is not an import mark but an ordinary hallmark!

oel
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Location: The Netherlands

Re: Unknown maker´s mark?

Postby oel » Sun Dec 14, 2014 9:12 pm

Dear Statler & Waldorf

Romania Domestic Silver Hallmarks 1906-1926

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The first series of silver hallmarks were represented by three standards, each with a distinctly different frame shape and two facing dolphins as the core image, which are part of the Romanian coat of arms. A Roman numeral between the two dolphins indicated one of the three silver standards. The Romanian 2nd standard mark minimum 800/1000 could in fact be 875/1000 or 84 zolotnik, and the bear most likely a Romanian maker’s mark.
Ref: World Hallmarks Volume I Europe 19th to 21st Centuries

Oel.

Zolotnik
Posts: 1024
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:35 am
Location: Germany

Re: Unknown maker´s mark?

Postby Zolotnik » Mon Dec 15, 2014 6:25 am

Hi oel -
thank you very much for solving the riddle!

Regards
Zolotnik

Zolotnik
Posts: 1024
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:35 am
Location: Germany

Re: Unknown maker´s mark?

Postby Zolotnik » Wed Dec 24, 2014 5:41 pm

Qrt.S wrote:No it hasn't so kindly reread your own text and reconsider what what it means. In other words. "...Romanian content mark..., probably a kind of import mark..." To that I responded that it is not an import mark but an ordinary hallmark!

(Admin edit)
If you look in your books you will discover that many countries have no import/export marks. In this case they take the stamp with the right silvercontent and use it as import/proof mark. Just go outside and visit some dealers, auction houses etc. and you will be surprised what you see but can not find in your books.

I wrote:... probably a kind of import mark..

Definition of probably:
adverb
almost certainly; as far as one knows or can tell.
"she would probably never see him again"
Synonyme: in all likelihood, in all probability, as likely as not, (very/most) likely, ten to one, the chances are, doubtless, no doubt, like enough
Last edited by oel on Wed Dec 24, 2014 10:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Retain X mas spirit

Zolotnik
Posts: 1024
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:35 am
Location: Germany

Re: Unknown maker´s mark?

Postby Zolotnik » Wed Dec 24, 2014 5:45 pm

Hi all -
an other object surfaced with the misterious bear - this time from Estonia - a knife

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Regards
Zolotnik

Zolotnik
Posts: 1024
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:35 am
Location: Germany

Re: Unknown maker´s mark?

Postby Zolotnik » Wed Dec 24, 2014 6:13 pm

Hi all -
although it is marked as 880 silver (no - it surely is no Mod. number!) it is marked by Estonian officials as 84 Zolotniki = 875 silver. (admin edit)
Question: which country made silver 880/1000? I only know the Chinese 1 dollar from 1937 had this content.

Regards
Zolotnik
Last edited by oel on Wed Dec 24, 2014 9:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: To retain Xmas spirit

oel
co-admin
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Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:16 pm
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Unknown maker´s mark?

Postby oel » Wed Dec 24, 2014 7:57 pm

Hi Zolotnik,

Better be Safe than Sorry or a little extra silver goes a long way.

If the number 880 indicates; 880/1000 fineness, it represents no legal problem, it is just above the Estonian Republic standard mark; minimum 84 zolotnik or 875/1000 fineness.
The “bear” maker and/or exporter made a silver item out of a silver alloy 880/1000 fineness and marked it accordingly “880”, an indication, for export to Estonia, and to have it assayed for the nearest legal Estonian standard; 84 zolotnik (minimum).
880/1000 is perfect for a minimum legal standard in; Latvia 875/1000, Russia 84 zolotnik, Germany crescent moon & crown minimum 800/1000 or higher, Holland 2nd standard 833/1000, Norwegian 830/1000 and most other Nordic countries & Switzerland, the Swiss bear 875/1000.
And let’s face it the difference in price, today, between one kilo silver 880/1000 and one kilo silver 875/1000 fineness = € 1.44. Difference in price between one kilo silver 880/1000 and one kilo silver 830/1000 fineness= € 14.40. A kilo of silver can be stretched a long way. Silver knife, on average, it can weigh anything between 50 and 100g. Difference in fineness of 880 or 830 we talk price difference between; € 0.72 and €1.44 max per knife.
(24/12 silver price 92.5% pure € 266.40 per kilo)

To fail for a legal assay silver standard often implicated, the silver item had to be destroyed and money was lost.

It appears the mystery bear mark has been around and used for some time, 22 years or more. Seen in combination with 'Imported Goods' mark St. Petersburg & Riga used 1882- late 1898 and the Estonian Republic national mark of fleur de lis used circa 1920-1924.



Oel


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