Helping to identify Gorham silverware

[ramiav]

Can you tell things about this fork from the picture?
Year of manufacture? Name?

(admin edit - see Posting Requirements )

Thanks a lot!

[url]http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y526/ramiavn/1000pxl_zps0ad13547.png[/url]

[url]http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y526/ramiavn/overview1000pxl_zps2e492325.png[/url]

[url]http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y526/ramiavn/2014-08-04110743_zpsd485f514.jpg[/url]

(admin photo edit - images too large - link only - see Posting Requirements )

[WarrenKundis]

Good morning,

That mark is not Gorham in any form I have ever seen, it would help a great deal if you shot the mark only. Since you have photobucket, could you reshoot the mark straight on, this image is at an angle, then crop and enlarge it as needed. The image of the finial needs to be flipped, appears to be H over M M.

Thank you
Warren

[WarrenKundis]

Allow me to also walk you through the process to embed the image here.

Once you have completed the edit process on photobucket save the image. Look to the right you will see IMG, click on it. Then open the post window here at 925. Look up then press IMG again. Right click then hit paste. The URL should appear. At the bottom hit preview. The image should appear clearly. Post it.

If the prompt is telling you it is too large, over 1000 pxls, go back to photobuck, enter the edit mode then click resize. Click on the larger of the two numbers you see, reduce to 600, then save again.

Hope this works for you.
Warren

[ramiav]

Thanks for your reply Warren!

the reason I think this is Gorham is that in the box I got there are a few forks and knives still in it's original nylon bag with the tag on it, like this one:

[url]http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y526/ramiavn/innylon_zps9e44091f.png[/url]

the ones in the nylon don't have the "HMM" logo on them.
I presume that the "HMM" is a personal engraving, but it is a guess.

here is the mark enlarged:

[url]http://i1279.photobucket.com/albums/y526/ramiavn/sterlingmark_zps4a10e960.png[/img]

(admin photo edit - images too large - link only - see Posting Requirements )

and here is the "HMM" engraving enlarged:



hope it will help you,
and again, thanks for your help!
Rami

[ramiav]

Sorry, I saw your post only after posting mine, and I thought it was OK to be up to 1000 pixles.
I'll try again:


the reason I think this is Gorham is that in the box I got there are a few forks and knives still in it's original nylon bag with the tag on it, like this one:




the ones in the nylon don't have the "HMM" logo on them.
I presume that the "HMM" is a personal engraving, but it is a guess.

here is the mark enlarged:



and here is the "HMM" engraving enlarged:



I do hope this is fine, forgive my lack of technical knowledge...

[WarrenKundis]

Now it's making sense.

William B. Durgin Co Concord NH and Providence RI, founded in 1853. Acquired by Gorham in 1905. Now a division of Gorham. Like the pattern very much. Let's see I'd another member can tell us if it's pre or post 1905.

W

[WarrenKundis]

Not a problem Rami, your getting it.

The label does say 1915, again let's see if someone can confirm that. Now I see it's an capital D laying face down.

W

[ramiav]

Thanks again Warren.

please forgive me for trying very hard to understand what you wrote,
English isn't my mother language and abbreviations makes it even harder :(

If I understand correctly, you said the either it was manufactured by a company that was later on acquired by Gorham, or it was manufactured by a division of Gorham?

And you see all that from the tag or from the engraving on the fork? Fascinating!

[WarrenKundis]

No actually I did look up Durgin to see its history. Gorham like another American firm International Silver did absorb or buy out smaller firms over the years. Some companies retained their old marks and patterns. And yes Durgin is now a division of Gorham Manufacturing Co.

The label is giving a date of 1915 which is ten years after Gorham acquired Durgin. Rami if you punch the top icon for American marks you will see a catagory labeled Gorham date marks, open it. For some years Gorham used letters then symbols or designate particular years. Pleae note that there is a letter H to the far right on your fork. Look that up, see what it tells us.

Warren

[ramiav]

1875???
Is it for real?

[WarrenKundis]

Right if it was a Gorham date letter it does not line up with a post 1905 purchase of Durgin by Gorham. For now the H can be set aside until we have further clarification by others.

Was not trying to confuse you, sometimes objects can have overlapping clues. A simple example may be a patent date which does not tell you when an object is actually made, more likely anytime on or after that year.

W

[JLDoggett]

Plese remember the Gorham letter dates are only for those with the Gorham mark. It appears the pattern was registered in 1915 so that is the earliest it could be. That packaging is of recent production, possibly from a replacement service. The date to find out is the last year of production. As that is a simple and elegant pattern I suspect it was in production through the 1970's. In the Later years of the 1970's as silver skyrocketed in price many makers produced 2 versions of their flatware; a lighter version and the full weight ones. They marketed the full-weight ones as heavy weight (A marketing ploy?). I suspect this is a later manufacturing date than earlier unless someone can point me to information otherwise.

[WarrenKundis]

Thank you, so very helpful Dogget. Let me ask a more general question as to the ownership and rights to designs and/or dies that predate the sale of William B Durgin to Gorham in 1915.

Say for example if this Chatham pattern had been produced prior to 1905 and had been previously patented by Durgin, would Gorham be able to continue to reproduce Chatham?

Warren

[luckypenny]

Weird coincidence, I'm not an expert but I just happened to be dealing with a souvenir spoon this morning with that same "D" mark but my spoon also says "Bullard Bros". I've been looking up Bullard Bros all morning and can't find any info on them and I wasn't able to locate that "D" mark. here's a pic of the mark I have (at least I hope it shows up)

[img][IMG]http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k299/src3collector/Silver/d063e38a-69da-46f4-ac4f-e85bdc2c71c1_zps82a557e0.jpg[/img][/img]

[luckypenny]

I couldn't find an edit button to change my post to fix the picture. Let me try this again:

[dragonflywink]

Durgin was issued the patent for 'Chatham' (#D46717) on Dec. 1, 1914, so 1915 would be a logical introduction date - the term of protection could be as short as 3½ years, but this one was for the maximum 14 years. Noting the patent on the item tends to turn up on the earlier dies for a pattern, but the dies could have been used long after the patent had expired. Don't believe Chatham was a particularly popular pattern, Gorham may have used the original dies for decades - on the other hand, Durgin's 1910 'Fairfax' pattern was very popular and is found marked as Durgin and also as Gorham (like most major manufacturers, Gorham offered once-a-year special orders of discontinued/inactive patterns). To my eye, the monogram seems a bit old-fashioned and suspect earlier production, but hard to tell. Weight codes have been used since the late 19th century, I haven't found them particularly common past the early 20th century - Gorham used at least four different weight codes, as well as other letter codes (some remaining a mystery). Just as an additional note - Gorham date marks are extremely uncommon on flatware.

Regarding Gorham's purchase of Durgin, don't have time to delve into my references at the moment, but if I recall correctly, Gorham didn't actually acquire Durgin until the mid '20s, when Gorham bought the Silversmiths Co., a holding company founded by Gorham's president Edward Holbrook which, from the early 20th century, held controlling interest in a number of silver manufacturers, including Whiting and Durgin, and conveniently enough, Gorham. Believe Durgin continued operating as a separate division until production was moved to the Gorham factory in 1931.

~Cheryl

[ramiav]

Thank you very much for your assistance guys.
I'm still a bit confused.

(admin edit - see Posting Requirements )

one more question, in my set, obviously, there are knives. The knives' handles are made of silver,
but the cutting part (does it have a name in English?) has engraving that says: "Gorham stainless" and a 5 point star.
Are knives in silverware usually have only silver handle?
Does the star mean anything?
I think my set is actually a mix of 2 different, although very similar, sets.

Again, many thanks for your interesting explanations.

rami

[dragonflywink]

The knife blades are stainless steel and would almost certainly date post WWI, though old silverplate blades were sometimes replaced with stainless at a later date - and the knife handles would be hollow, filled with resin or something similar.

~Cheryl

[WarrenKundis]

Thank you Cheryl, a wealth of knowledge that your always willing to share.

A very good day to all!
Warren

[JLDoggett]

Waren, the rights to the patterns and dies would go with the ownership of the company as an asset.