Irish Dognose Spoon

[DublinFusiler]

Hi,

Any assistance with identifying this spoon would be greatly appreciated!

I have spent many hours examining the maker's device and it appears to be that of James Kelly (heart-shaped device, with IK)




Thanks

[dognose]

Hi,

Welcome to the Forum.

James Kelly indeed does seem the likely candidate from what remains of the mark. John Humphreys and John Phillips are other, perhaps less likely, possibilities.

Can you make out anything of the date letter? It may help eliminate the other candidates.

Trev.

[WarrenKundis]

Appears that we are definitely looking at a gothic letter, O for 1734 or Q 1736. Am assuming that the date letter is up in relation to the makers mark. Does this make any sense?

Warren

[dognose]

Hi Warren,

The 'Dognose' pattern fell out of favour around the 1710-1715 period. It was replaced in popularity by the Hanoverian pattern.

Trev.

[DublinFusiler]

Thank you gentlemen, the date letter looks like 1701 or 1703-04 as there is a parallel bar running top to bottom with a rounded top/bottom.

Karl

[WarrenKundis]

Thanks Trev,

Just trying to look at the image stylistically, there are ver few Gothic letters have two vertical lines with another line curved across the top. The Dublin series I'm looking at runs from 1678-1716.

possibles:

1680 C
1681 D
1701 O
1703 Q

next series

1722 C

Wish I could be of more help.
W
etc;

[scorpio]

Thank you gentlemen, the date letter looks like 1701 or 1703-04 as there is a parallel bar running top to bottom with a rounded top/bottom.

Karl

Nice find. My opinion is James Kelly, 1701. Bennett gives his dates as 1662-1700 but I guess he could have made items in 1700 which were hallmarked the following year. Again, to quote Bennett, the dog nose spoon appeared in Ireland in approximately 1690.

Interestingly, I note the bullet above the I in the maker's mark on your spoon seems to be star shaped whereas the quoted maker's mark has a round bullet.

[dognose]

Purely as a side note, and I apologise for wandering off topic slightly, but if the maker of this spoon is James Kelly, then an explanation of why he appears as a Quarter Brother in the Dublin Company's books for 1666-67 (see Jackson p.686) is revealed in an interesting statement in this link:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... _09_28.jpg

Roman Catholic silversmiths were forbidden by law to own shops and were classed as ‘foreigners’ for the purpose of their trade.

Thus Kelly would have had to pay quarterly dues to the Dublin Company for the privilege of working on his own account.

Trev.

[scorpio]

Very interesting Trev. Thanks for posting that information. I wasn't aware there was a 17th century chalice on displace in it (I don't know my Dublin very well!). I really must go on a tour of St. Audoens

However, I'm not quite sure why that Wiki page says "St. Audoen's at that time was Church of Ireland." St. Audeon's is still Church of Ireland. There is a 19th century Catholic church also called St. Audeon's beside it.

Church of Ireland: http://cja.dublin.anglican.org/
Catholic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Audoen' ... n_Catholic)

[dognose]

Hi Scorpio,

Thanks for the links.

Interestingly, I note the bullet above the I in the maker's mark on your spoon seems to be star shaped whereas the quoted maker's mark has a round bullet.

I suspect Douglas Bennett encountered the same problems as Arthur Grimwade. The illustrations were likely taken from the registers rather than the copper plates that would reveal much sharper detail. If the same system was used in Dublin as in London, then ink impressions were taken from the punches and applied into the register. This form of application results in a loss of detail and stars turn into bullets etc.

Dublin Assay Offices rules:

To enter the mark-punches of gold manufacturers in copper, and also to make a like entry of said mark-punches, with the owner's name and place of abode, and the time of such registry, in a book kept for that purpose.

Trev.

[scorpio]

That would explain the difference. Thanks Trev.

Gordon

[DublinFusiler]

Thank you all most kindly for your assistance.

Karl