Silverplate ?

[Eggoman]

I'm trying to identify/confirm the country & maker on a presentation basket that I bought. The basket was brought into my friend's jewelry store. The basket is engraved "Given by the Earl of Dartmouth to S. Parr A. D. 1781" on one side and "Given by S. Parr to the Hon. & Rev. A. G. Legge A. D. 1816" on the other. IF the basket is THAT old, I don't think that it can be silverplated, but the only Marks on the item are the Lion Passant Hallmark indicating Sterling Silver and the initials T.I over the initials W.I. ANY help/info would be greatly appreciated!

[dognose]

Hi,

Welcome to the Forum.

Your question cannot be answered without the required images. The below should help you:

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http://www.postimg.com is recommended. Embedded images get a far greater response than just posting links.

Remember to use the 'Preview' button before submitting your post.

Trev.

[Eggoman]

Forgot the images! Sorry about that!



(admin photo edit - images too large - link only - see Posting Requirements )

[Eggoman]

New Image of Basket!

[dognose]

Hi Eggoman,

The basket will be made of silver. The maker is, to my knowledge, unconfirmed, and may be a entrant in the missing register at Goldsmiths Hall. It is thought that the mark may be that of Jefferys and Jones (Thomas Jefferys and William Jones II), of Cockspur Street, London.

There should be other marks on the basket, perhaps worn?

It would be great if you could post a sharp, clear image of the maker's mark for our records.

Trev.

[Eggoman]

Here are some additional images of the inscriptions on either side of the basket. Looking forward to getting ANY additional info!

[Eggoman]

Hey Trev:

Finally, some info! THANK YOU SO MUCH! I have attached additional images of the hallmarks. But try as I might - I do NOT see any other markings on the bottom (or elsewhere), just A LOT of tool marks. Perhaps they were obliterated OR never impressed for some reason??? I am assuming that when you say the basket will be made of silver, you mean 0.925, correct? Is it possible that the basket REALLY IS 200+ years old??? Is there any way to know/document if Jefferys and Jones were performing work for the Earl of Dartmouth at this time?

FASCINATING!




Best Regards,
Greg

[Eggoman]

One more better image...

[dognose]

Hi Greg,

Many thanks for posting the extra images, it is appreciated.

It would appear from these new images that it is possible that some sort of erasure, perhaps of an earlier inscription, has occurred. The file marks can be seen running over the top of the Lion Passant and perhaps this was the point where the missing London and date letter marks were lost.



Yes, it will be Sterling (925/1000) silver.

Jefferys and Jones were important silversmiths in their day, possessors of the Royal Warrant to King George III.

Trev.

[Eggoman]

Hey Trev:

Again, MANY thanks for the information!

Would it make ANY sense that the original marks were present when the basket was first made/gifted/inscribed in 1781. Then, when the basket was re-inscribed and re-gifted in 1816, the marks were (or had to be) removed for some reason???

I know we will likely never have all of the answer, tho... If only the basket could talk!

My Best,
Greg

[Eggoman]

Do you have a resource that I may contact (outside of this forum) regarding the history of this item?

[dognose]

Hi Greg,

As it bears an inscription dated 1781, I suspect erasure was of a yet earlier inscription, of course, the hallmarks would have earlier too.

If Jefferys and Jones were entrants in the missing Largeworkers register then they would have been registered prior to 1773. Heal records them in business as from 1779.

Another point to consider. Is the maker's mark original? It looks likely that we have lost some marks, maybe we have also lost the the original maker's mark and the mark we now see is that of Jefferys and Jones acting as retailers, a line of business that they were noted for, rather than that of manufacturing.

A scenario may be that this item was in stock at Jefferys and Jones, or in the possession of the Earl of Dartmouth, who wanted to make a gift to Mr. Parr, and it was engraved and the old inscription removed by Jefferys and Jones who struck their mark on it in 1781.

If you can obtain a copy of 'London Goldsmiths 1697-1837' by Arthur G. Grimwade, some details of the firm of Jefferys and Jones are contained therein.

Trev.

[agphile]

You might find it interesting to do a bit of research on the individuals named in the inscriptions. Dr Samuel Parr (1747-1825) was a well-known schoolmaster who had taught both the 3rd Earl of Dartmouth and the Earl's brother the Honourable and Reverend A G Legge. We have the Earl giving his old schoolmaster a piece of silver and many years later the gift being passed on to the Earl's brother. A bit of hunting (on line searches as a start) might reveal whether there were any particular events that might have prompted this sequence of gifts.

[agphile]

I should have added that it looks to me as if the two inscriptions may be by the same hand and done at the same time, i.e. Samuel Parr had the history of the basket engraved when passing it on, but that is easier to judge with the basket in hand. Of course, it may just be that the second inscription was deliberately engraved to match in this way.

[Eggoman]

THANK YOU MUCH for your note! I have been pursuing WHO the people named on the basket were and how the related to one another, as I had come to a dead end with the Hallmarks.

One question though, IF the basket was originally gifted in 1781 as inscribed, wouldn't the Second Earl of Dartmouth been presiding over whatever the Earl's job responsibilities were??? (Besides Secretary of State for the Colonies...) Or am I incorrect in my thinking? I have found NOTHING regarding a Silver gift to Dr. Parr from the Second Earl of Dartmouth, however, perhaps from the THIRD Earl of D...

Thanks for the lead!

Greg

[dognose]

Hi Greg,

The images of the basket appear to have dropped out. Can you replace them?

Trev.

[Eggoman]

Will Do!

[dognose]

Thanks Greg,

What is the size of this piece?

Trev.

[Eggoman]

The basket measures ~7 ¼” long by ~3 ¼” wide by ~3 ½” high (to the top of the handles). It weighs approximately 5 troy ounces of Sterling Silver.

[agphile]

Back to those named in the inscriptions. In my earlier post I rather casually assumed the original donor was the 3rd Earl. He would not have succeeded to the title in 1781 but referring to him by his later title would be explained if I am right that the inscription was added long after the event. However, I now think it was in fact the 2nd Earl. There is a letter of Dec 1781 from the Earl of Dartmouth to Parr thanking him for all he had done for the Earl's son who had left Parr's care the previous Summer and was now at Christ Church (the Oxford college). It is quoted in John Johnstone's Memoirs of the Life and Writings of Samuel Parr. I have not tried to work out which of the many sons this will have been but the obvious implication is that the basket was a thank you gift from parent to teacher.

Not sure why the gift should have been passed on to A G Legge in 1816. but they were in contact then. In a friendly letter of 29 October 1816 Legge thanks Parr for his hospitality earlier that year.

In the nature of these things it is unlikely that there will be a record of the actual gift in printed sources so one is reduced to looking for events linking those involved to each other at the relevant time.