Dutch Apostle Spoon marks

[Lifeloverwg]

I was so happy to find this Dutch specific forum when researching an apostle spoon that has come down to me through my family. The spoon is very clearly used and even a bit abused with a poorly done mend in the handle. Most of the marks are quite worn, but I now believe the marks to indicate that it is of Dutch origin as indicated by what looks to be the crowned rampart lion and I read the date stamp to be the top of the "I" from the year 1843. I'm wondering if the mark above the lion could be the crown and 3 fishes of the town mark for Enkhuizen? There is another unidentified possible makers mark below the date stamp and a very clear deeply stamped axe duty mark next to the rat tail.
I'm not any kind of an expert on silver marks so I'm just looking for what ever level of confirmation I may find from the knowledge base here. Perhaps the style could have some indication towards a possible maker as well. I'm also a bit confused as to just which apostle is being depicted on this spoon as I see lists indicating that St. Simon is usually shown with the saw and St. Jude with the carpenters square but I haven't found anything talking about someone having them both along with dividers.

Thank you for your kind response. Winston

[oel]

Hi Winston, welcome to the forum,

Not a so called apostle spoon but a figural spoon. The figure as the termination of the handle does not represent an apostle but a figure to symbolize the profession of carpenter, hence; long saw, ruler and carpenters square or the tools of the trade.

The marks;
Three herrings naiant in pale within a crowned shield, the silver guild city mark of Enkhuizen. This particular city guild mark of Enhuizen, I believe, used 18th century, date letter I or L for last quarter 18th century. The lion rampant in a crowned shield, standard mark for the province of Holland, to indicate 1st standard or 934/1000 silver fineness. The maker’s mark appears to be a crown or(?) but the whole needs a little more research and I do hope, at a later stage, to provide you with some more or better information.

In the mean time see:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=32028

Oel.

Gratitude; Zilverstudie.nl

[Lifeloverwg]

Thank you Oel for your remarks.

I can't find any information online regarding date letters for 18th century to compare to. I had read your linked discussion on marks and that is where I found the 3 fishes city mark. I do see in one of your posts " Small sized letter L, tax paid mark for Amsterdam punched in 1795" that looks be a possible match.
After learning it is a figural spoon, I was surprised to find a virtually identical example currently listed online, that judging from it's lack of wear looks to possible be newer. This other spoon looks to have 3 of the same stamps as mine, including the crowned rampant lion, the same city stamp and the hatchet stamp. The figural handle looks almost as if it could have come from the same mold as it is very near to the same as mine. Mine has a more refined look with a more developed finial that the figure stands on, but handle shape and fugural detail are much the same .

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[oel]

Hi, during the time of the city guilds each town used their own date/year letters to be able to identify the responsible assayer on duty during a particular year or years in the history of the guild. In 1798 the Dutch guilds which existed for ages, were declared abolished but temporarily remain in existence as destroyed guilds until 1807 with the total dismantling of the guilds, and the introduction of office marks and uniform date letter. The various and different city guild date letters used cannot be found online but in various reference books like; Elias Voet, Jr., Nederlands Goud- & Zilvermerken or Karel A. Citroen, Dutch Goldsmiths' and Silversmiths' Marks and Names prior to 1812. A lot of the old history of the guilds has been lost or destroyed and many uncertainties about city date letters and maker’s marks still exist.
You wrote your spoon has a known provenance; many copies of antique figural & apostle spoons are offered with fake/pseudo hallmarks. Sometimes you can simply tell by looking at the spoon, brand new and/or without any patina and sometimes the fake marks are obviously wrong. But often only a close examination, having the spoon in hand, and knowledge of silver, the various styles and hallmarks are needed to determine fake or real. In my opinion, looking at your images, your figural spoon looks good. The maker’s mark is unknown.
The hatchet, the 1853 duty mark for old silver objects of national origin returned to the trade. In accordance with several resolutions with further clarifications, this mark was intended for objects with the hallmarks of the ancient Netherlands silversmiths’ companies (city guild marks)….The use of this mark was abolished in 1927 for two reasons:1st . The lack of knowledge of the old marks has caused this mark to be sometimes struck on old foreign objects. 2nd. this mark had often been counterfeited and used to give objects an antique aura.
I would like to see a close and clear image of the hatchet.


Oel.

[Lifeloverwg]

Sorry for the improper link Oel, I had missed the second click required to reach the posting rules.

While I have no real experience collecting or researching old European silver, as a jeweler by trade I understand how difficult it can be to decypher marks and can appreciate how amazing it is that we have the wealth of information we do have at our fingertips via the internet, even if it must always remain limited by the expertise to properly interpret it.

As for provenance, the spoon is reputed to have been in the family since my fathers side first immigrated to the United States in the early 1800s from Ireland with his wife of Scottish descent. Most all the rest of our family silver comes via later marriages and is predominantly american in origin.

Here is a pretty good picture of the hatchet mark.
[img][IMG]http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k309/lifeloverwg/repairmark_zps82e520d7.jpg[/img][/img]

[oel]

The hatchet mark looks alright, used 1853-1927 and your family could have obtained the figural spoon around the 2nd part of the 19th century or later.


Oel.