Need help verifying 17-75-1781 French Piece

[taystar7]

Click http://imgur.com/a/JCCCY to view the images!

I found this the other day. Did some research on the silvercollection.it webpage. I could use some help verifying the hallmarks of this looks to be 1775-1781 French Punch Ladle. Any help would be appreciated! The "A" looks like this http://www.silvercollection.it/XCHARGE1775DUEBIS.jpg

and the "P" looks like this

http://www.silvercollection.it/CHARGEDIJONBIS.jpg

above the P is a very small crown identifying: THE MARK OF DISCHARGE GRATIS

The marking at the bottom is faded and very hard to read.

Thanks in advanced!

[Francais]

I have to say what I usually have to say, that the quality of an answer is dependent on the quality of the photos supplied.
You need to have a strong indirect lighting a sheet or something in between the light source and the object, macro setting on your lens, and put the edge of a piece of paper next to the mark if you can't get the camera to focus.
Anyway you have identified the A and discharge mark, but the P you found in a book is not the same as the one on the ladle.
However the one on the ladle does seem to be that for 1778-9, at least that is what it looks like from your photo.
It would be possible to identify the maker if you can do a better photo, or get a loupe move it around in the light and identify the letters that you can read. I can almost read the first on the left, if it is legible and you can tell there are four letters in total, it might be possible to identify it.
Your ladle has a problem. The initials in the monogram do not seem to be in a style appropriate for the age of the ladle. I then noticed that it seems like there might be a disk soldered on over the original monogram.
Maurice

[Francais]

Oh, and welcome to the forum.

[taystar7]

Thank you Maurice for looking the ladle over and welcoming me to this great group. I've been an amateur collector and finally decided to join these forums after browsing them for over a year..I agree with your thoughts regarding the monogram, I have attached some better photos (hopefully) of the monogram and it definitely appears to be hovering or added later.

See the new photos here http://imgur.com/a/6goC5

I sharpened the A and it is a dead ringer for the time period according to this http://www.h.cx/?ShowHallmark=8084.
Then when it comes to the bottom hallmark it looks a lot like a profile of a face but I will let you look and see what you think. Thanks again in advance!

[Francais]

You have the A and the discharge mark, I gave you the P and yes the disk was added later, a little unusual as they usually just buff off the old and re-engrave.
So the only thing missing is the maker's mark. It is a crowned fleur de lys, which I can't make out, then two pellets visible above the square. Then there is what looks like a F or something similar and what looks like a P on the right. With a loupe you could change the lighting and maybe verify the two letters Then as they are placed high on the square there must be something under the letters. Under the P it looks like a pellet, a little unusual. If you can read the two letters, the odd shape of the right of the cartouche could identify the maker.
Maurice

[taystar7]

Thank you for your swift reply. I have looked over the images and I see what you mean. The makers mark looks a lot like a F or R or E and an obvious looking P on the right. I managed to find one makers mark that would reflect that here http://www.925-1000.com/Ffrench_makers_R.html (scoll to the bottom.) It could be that the F is actually an R but it differs in a lot of ways. I do think that the makers mark may be in the same style though, pellets above each letter etc. Most of the area you can't see is literally flattened down due to wear, so its unfortunately really hard to see the third letter below the 2. See the attached photo. http://imgur.com/RqJaUsy. Check it out and let me know what you think. Maybe there is another way of getting up closer, a microscope haha?! I tried shining it left and right under the loupe and it didn't reveal much. Thanks again! Were getting closer to identifying this thing!

[Francais]

I don't think that mark will work. You have to look for reference points of similarities or differences. The mark you are looking for seems to have a mostly strait edge on the right. The pellet over the first letter sits right on top of it, so the one over the P should be right on top of it. finally both letters sit high in the more or less square cartouche, but probably not high enough for two more letters. Quite honestly if we are reading the letters right I don't think the mark is registered.
Look at it this way, you're taking great photos now.
Maurice

[taystar7]

Haha thank you Maurice, my photos have gotten better! So what exactly is an unregistered hallmark? What does that entail? Would that throw away the other confirmed details or? Your right about the reference points, I went through multiple websites trying to match the shape and details but nothing listed. Perhaps it was made by an obscure shop. I may check my library for any books regarding french hallmarks and see if there is any more details..It's still puzzling me, I wonder if there is any substance that could be poured on the surface (without ruining it) that would raise the surface to be easier read. I know that you can take dateless american buffalo nickels and mix it with hydrogen peroxide and vinegar to reveal a worn date but to put that on silver probably won't work and I don't want to risk tarnishing it.

[Francais]

In France when a silversmith passed his exams and joined a guild they struck their mark on a plaque and registered it. We haven't found all the plaques, some turned up some decades ago. And who knows, but there are marks that haven't been identified. If someone just made flatware, maybe no one figured it out.
No the rest are still right, we know when and where, just not who. If you look through the posts since I started answering them you will find it isn't that rare not to identify the maker. If you find something that supposedly brings up a mark, I will try it on a piece of silver. I looked into the matter years ago and gave up.
I do know the FBI has something that works on guns, but that is it.
Maurice

[WarrenKundis]

Good day gentlemen,

Have just been trying to make some sense of the makers mark your kicking around. This mark is so badly mauled, from what I see you can add F&E to your list of possible candidates. The shot with the insert looks more like a P as you suggest but the other with the blue warm tone appears to expose a more rounded sweep on the lower half. Up the middle almost appears to be a branching tree or at least something that radiates outward from a central shaft.

Best of luck Taystar and do keep trying shooting it under different conditions. Try turning some straight up and rolling left as you shoot.

Warren

[taystar7]

Thanks for the advice Maurice! An unknown makers mark. That is mysterious, i like the thought of it really, makes it more of a challenge to figure out. The substance that can bring marks up looks to only apply to copper/nickel coins :) but it would be an interesting experiement. See the video of someone doing it to their buffalo nickel https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSs2b7Tc-q8

Yes the makers mark is very mauled Warren. Thank you I haven't thought about F & E I will look that one up and reference it, the rounded bottom left is puzzling indeed especially since the other side looks to be squared off. You're right according to that photo the middle has this arched light marking (almost looks like a scratch) on it. I'm going to do some more rotating this weekend and see if anything shows itself and I will let you guys know what it reveals. Thanks

Taylor

[taystar7]

Check out this one, i got closer and if you look closely you can see the bottom of the E, so i think we can verify that the letter on the left is 90% an E..The letter on the right looks like a P still..hmmm http://imgur.com/BsJMkHk

[Francais]

Ok, I have a candidate, but first turn it and look under the right edge, can you see the rest of the P?

Maurice

[WarrenKundis]

Ineresting the shot flattened the surface but the E is very visible. I'll agree with E&P even though we can't see the complete loop. F seems like the only other possibility.

W

[Francais]

Ok, as long as you are sure it is a P, then I would say it is Étienne Pagnon. The right edge isn't right but there are two possible reasons. The first is the marks in the book I am using are just drawings, so it is possibly wrong, but also when a silversmiths mark was struck it was with quite a force, as with most of the other marks. They deform the spoon. So after a spoon is marked it is often hammered back into shape. This changes the shape of the cartouche and often makes it hard to read. Besides the right edge, it is fairly close, the thing underneath is kind of like a pair of wings.
I checked the internet and the only pieces I could find were flatware, without the mark shown. But that does fit, as often silversmiths specialized. He also worked at the right time, and I found one piece with almost the same date.
I think that's it.
Maurice

[taystar7]

I can pretty much verify that it is a P. If you look at the top and bottom of where a P would arch http://imgur.com/RhbaHxl, the lines curve in the right places..probably too much curving to be an f unless it was distorted during its marking like Maurice was saying. Thanks for the help on this, Do you have a photo or link of the one you found online? Very interesting indeed..It almost also looks like a crown on top of hallmark..A pair of wings, interesting!

[Francais]

Just Google "Etienne Pagnon" in quotes, use images not web. You will find several pieces of fiddle thread flatware. Unfortunately none show the mark, and after the first few pictures you will get pictures of other things in the catalogue. I think some where in English, some in French.
Maurice

[taystar7]

Thanks Maurice for all your help! Thank you also Warren. (Admin edit, please read the forum rules) Should I have it appraised, its pretty heavy around 350 grams.

[WarrenKundis]

Your very welcome Taystar, just to advise we don't discuss price here.

Enjoy your weekend!
Warren

[Francais]

I would like to point out that the current monogram was put on much later than the first monogram.
As I said in my first posting, I recognized the style didn't match the age of the piece. It is possible the original monogram is underneath, but it may or may not be possible to remove the disk without permanent damage.
It would depend on how the disk was applied, soft or hard solder. I can't recommend trying to remove it without looking at the piece. I would also point out, only a top notch expert could determine how to remove it.
Maurice