Help to identify maker

[techsol]

Hi, My knowledge of Russian silver is slight to say the least, so I would be grateful for any help identifying the maker of this spoon please.

Assayed in Moscow 1872 by Vladimir Stepanovic Smirnov?, there appears to be two maker's marks, any ideas?

Regards,
Martin.

[Qrt.S]

These marks make me a bit suspicious....but if we, anyway, speculate a bit......The assayer cannot be Vladimir Smirnoff but either of the brothers Veniamin or Victor Savinsky. Smirnoff assayed for one year only i.e. 1878 (A remark only). This is not, however, the major problem but the double maker's mark is. We have И.А and И●Х. You see Ivan Khlebnikov used И●Х or ИХ in his St Petersburg workshop but your mark has Moscow's town mark and why two maker's marks????

Let's wait for some more opinions...

[dognose]

It appears to me that the 'И.А' is the first to be struck, then the assayer's mark, as it appears to have slightly overlapped 'И.А' , and finally, later, after assay, the mark of 'И·Х' has been applied, as this overlaps the assayer's mark.

Trev.

[Qrt.S]

Correct Trev. and please note that the assayer's mark cannot according to the law be punched before the maker's mark is punched. Nonetheless, why are they two maker's marks? Forgot to mention that И●Х it not at all necessarily Khlebinkov's mark but then we have a new problem, who's mark is it?

[dognose]

Hi Qrt.S,

The sequence of marking is the same in Great Britain, maker first, then the hallmarks. If this was an English spoon, I would assume that 'И·Х' was either another silversmith or just a retailer, that had obtained stock from 'И.А', who is undoubtedly the actual maker. Such overstriking was not uncommon in England, but was it permitted in Russia?

Also, if 'И·Х' was just a retailer, could this be the reason that he appears to be unregistered?

Trev.

[Qrt.S]

Hi Trev.

Ye, it is possible that this 'И·Х' could be a retailer's mark but I don't think so. The famous "FABERGE" marks is a kind of a retailer's mark. Here is a topic where the retailer system has been discussed: viewtopic.php?f=46&t=23180&p=69276&hilit=BURG#p69276 There should be another thread relating to the marks ЕП and СП.БУ ГЪ but I cannot find it right now.

The problem with this spoon is that I cannot identify neither of the "maker's marks". In addition, why would the retailer over strike the original maker's mark. I still see this marking very doubtful. I would like to see the whole spoon, thank you. Moreover this assayer mark B·C is often found on fakes....too often.

[techsol]

Hi, I have added an image of the whole spoon. FYI the spoon measures 22cms in length and is one of 5 identical spoons I have, but it is the only one double struck with the 'И.А' mark.

Martin.

[Qrt.S]

Thank you. Could you kindly show the marks on another spoon?

[techsol]

Hi Qrt.S, Image of marks from another spoon.

Martin.

[Zolotnik]

Hi all -
it is commonly known, that Khlebnikov sold his merchandise in Moscow also - it had to be assayed there. Her some facts from a wellknown book:











Regards
Zolotnik

[Qrt.S]

Unfortunately the book shown by Zolotnik contains insufficient and outdated information. Among those there never was an assayer BC (Latin VS) whose name was V. Savinkov. The correct name is Savinsky and there where two of them. The brothers Viktor and Veniamin. A third B·C was Vladimir Smirnoff. The dot between the assayers initials is usually centralized (·) very seldom an ordinary dot (.) . I cannot recall ever seeing one single assayer's mark where there is a second dot after the second letter like in the book (B.C.)

. The kokoshnik marks do not look like that etc. etc.. Sorry, but I don't quite catch what is your point by showing the pictures?

[Zolotnik]

Hi Qrt.S -

the best would be you write a book with all the informations only you have and revolutionize the literature about Russian hallmarking. It seems all well-known authors move in the dark.....

Sorry, but I don't quite catch what is your point by showing the pictures?

Yes - that is your main problem!

Regards
Zolotnik

[Qrt.S]

What good does it make to this site to deny facts? The book simply is out of date. Many old books are even Postnikova contains lots of misunderstandings and errors. I know that you Zolotnik know that so why be mean?

[Zolotnik]

Hi all -
here some other objects by Khlebnikov assayed in Moscow, I can provide more from my collection if necessary....





















In my opinion the by techsol shown spoons are authentic - everything is as it should be.

Regards
Zolotnik

[Dad]

Hello.

I think, ИХ it is the retailer. He punched after assay marking. Letter "X" very characteristic. Khlebnikov can quite be the retailer.

Here one more spoon from this set. )))