Thimble in wood acorn holder circa 1900 - help on dating.

[AnnaOwen]

I have a silver thimble with a wooden acorn holder. I have been told that the thimble has a Chester hallmark. The manufacturer is C.R. & Co. Would be grateful for any help on date or manufacturer.


http://www.annaowen.pwp.blueyonder.co.u ... detail.jpg
http://www.annaowen.pwp.blueyonder.co.u ... h_case.jpg
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[carling]

To the best of my knowledge CR&Co has so far not been identified. What is likely, however, is that your thimble was made by Charles Horner. Most late nineteenth and early twentieth century Chester hallmarked thimbles were made either by Charles Horner or Henry Griffith & Sons. Both thimble makers made thimbles for a wide number of wholesalers, retailers and jewellers and their individual marks were applied to the thimbles. It is known that Charles Horner made thimbles for at least 50 companies so the business of identifying them all is quite an undertaking.

I can't see a date letter on your thimble. Is it rubbed beyond reading?

Here is a web site you may find helpful:

http://thimbleselect.bizland.com/silversmiths.htm

Regards, carling
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[AnnaOwen]

Thank you, Carling, for your prompt and most helpful reply. Yes, I do think that the date letter has been rubbed beyond recognition. Is it likely that the wood acorn holder would be the same age as the thimble itself?

Thanks also for the reference to the web site, which looks very interesting.

Anna
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[carling]

I'm going to correct myself here. On further reflection the size number 17 on your thimble is typical of Henry Griffith & Sons, rather than Horner. The border pattern (interlocking asterisks) known as "Louise" was also one used by HG&S on their steel cored Dreema thimbles as well as on silver thimbles.

I would guess that your thimble was made in the first quarter of the 20th century.

Regards/carling.
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[carling]

Is it likely that the wood acorn holder would be the same age as the thimble itself?

Very probably. I would perhaps use the word "Edwardian" to describe the ensemble.

Regards/ carling.
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[AnnaOwen]

Once again, thank you again for your responses to my enquiry. I do appreciate your help in this matter.

regards

Anna
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[georgiansilver]

With regard to Charles Horner. His thimbles are all....without exception marked with CH. Best wishes, Mike.
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[AnnaOwen]

Thanks Mike for the extra information about Charles Horner. We are a charity and are given items to sell for our work. It is therefore very useful to have so much information from experts such as yourself.

Anna
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[carling]

With regard to Charles Horner. His thimbles are all....without exception marked with CH. Best wishes, Mike.

I think I know what you mean, Mike. The point I was making however, is that Horner made thimbles for many others and these thimbles are found with other makers'/sponsors' (retailers, jewellers, wholesalers) marks.

For example, these two thimbles were made by Charles Horner for William Harrison Walter and G W Hatton & Co.

Horner thimbles without the C.H mark.



Regards/carling

[Gerryl]

Looking at Ridgway & Priestley "Chester Gold & Silver Marks 1570 to 1962" there is an entry sent in by H Griffith & Son on 3 June 1910 referring to CR & Co in respect of Alfred George CLAYDON, Charles ROBIN trading as Claydon, Robin & Co - wholesale jewellers of 15 New Union Street, London, EC. The mark illustrated looks good as a possible candidate for your maker.

Regards

Gerryl
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[georgiansilver]

Sorry to dispute this Carling but all Charles Horner items are marked CH. Best wishes, Mike.
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[carling]

Here are the marks on a Chester 1896 thimble. The maker's mark is Gourdel Vales & Co. To the left of the size number is a Registered Design Number 210800. This refers to a design known as the 'Princess May' daisy pattern registered by Charles Horner on April 18, 1893.

Ergo, the thimble was made by Horner for G.V& Co.

Do you not believe me when I say that Horner and other major thimble makers made thimbles for other companies and even arranged for their marks to be stamped on them?

[georgiansilver]

The pattern may well be registered by Charles Horner and not 'patented' so other companies can use the pattern. What I am saying is...Charles Horner made his wares in Halifax...they were given his own CH stamp and sent to the Chester assay office for the official hallmark to be added. If you have information which says that this is not so, I would love to research it myself and to know your source please. If what you are saying is true then I can only thank you for the information but need to follow up research to broaden my knowledge. Best wishes, Mike.
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[admin]

Mike,
As the ins and outs of the British patent/registry system are a mystery to me, and most others here, please clarify a point. If a design is registered to a specific maker or designer, but others can produce it, what then is the point of registering? It would seem a useless action.
Also, it would be helpful if someone would clarify the difference between registered and patented.
Thanks, Tom
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[georgiansilver]

Many designers have registered designs/patterns/styles such as William Morris, Archibold Knox, Charles Rennie-Mackintosh, Christopher Dresser etc etc . Most people with rudiments of knowledge can recognise those.Some of those designers have not taken a 'patent' on those designs which means that anyone can reproduce the design. A 'patent' on a pattern/style/design is like a copyright in literature, which precludes anyone copying it unless under licence. Tried to put it in laymens terms. Hope this helps. Best wishes, Mike.
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[carling]

I don't know about research material but years of experience and comparative research has revealed that the major players in the thimble making business made thimbles for other silversmiths, jewellers, wholesalers, retailers, factors etc. This is widely accepted in thimble circles and I can't think of anyone who questions it. Although there are hundreds of makers'/sponsors' marks that appear on thimbles relatively few companies had the requisite machinery to produce them.

It is likely that they (the makers such as Horner, Griffith, Swann and Fenton) also submitted the marks of the companies to the assay offices too as in the instance cited by Gerryl above.

I have seen quite a number of identifiably Horner thimbles with the maker's mark completely missing but am at pains to explain how that occurred without resorting to speculation.

I maintain that a Horner thimble may not necessarily have the C.H mark for the reasons I've stated in this thread.

There's nothing new (or old) in the practice of making things for other people. If a tin of beans has the word Tesco on the label are we to assume they also put them in the tin?

Regards/carling
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[georgiansilver]

I would not want to enter into a protracted discussion on this as my knowledge/experience is in question, so have decided to do some research on your 'suggestion'. I know it is a common practice now for Tescos etc to buy in goods to put their own labels on but I do believe well known silversmiths would not want their 'handmade' work attributed to another or a company in Georgian, Victorian or Edwardian times. If I found a thimble with another mark, other than Charles Horners...there is no way I would attempt to attribute it to him. In all my years of experience I have never heard of this practice in silver or gold. However, I am prepared to take on board that I may have missed something and will research this thoroughly. Watch this space! I am always ready to learn. Best wishes, Mike.
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[carling]

I think what we have to remember is that people like Horner and other makers I've mentioned above were not making silver items for collectors and future generations of hallmark scrutineers. He was making a living and would have been a mug to turn down an order from, say, John Thompson & Son for 5000 silver thimbles marked with their JT&S mark.

Horner made these Isle of Man souvenir thimbles for John Thompson & Son. The identical design is found with the Horner mark too!



I daresay both companies did very well out of them and that's what it really was all about.

Like you I have no wish to continue this discussion further and so will now bow out.

Regards/carling
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[georgiansilver]

On a silversmiths site (related to the making of thimbles) I have found the following silversmiths who made thimbles in their own right. Some made thimbles to Charles Horners registered designs. These have been copied and pasted directly from the site and I will be happy to give the site address to anyone who wishes to check it. They are also the ones detailed in the pictures above.

GV&Co Gourdel Vales & Co
London Chester 1895 1896 some have CH Registration design numbers

GWH&Co G W Hatton
Birmingham Chester 1892 1897 1899 1900 1901 1902 1903 1906 1914 1917 August 1895 registered mark in Birmingham

JT&S John Thompson & Son
London Chester Birmingham 1880 1887 1890 1891 1893 1895 1896 1899 1900 1901 1902 1906 1907 1909 1910 mark registered in Birmingham 1882 some have CH Registration design numbers

WHW William Harrison Walter
London Chester 1889 1893 1894 1902 1903 29 August 1895 factor / silversmith.

The dates mentioned are of actual thimbles made by those companies which are in collectors possession.

Best wishes, Mike.
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[georgiansilver]

Sorry I forgot...AnnaOwen. CR&Co are recorded as Chester silversmiths and a collector has a thimble dated 1907-8 but it does not give the companys name which I assume remains unknown. Best wishes, Mike.
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