French 1798-1809 silver tea strainer i cant find the maker

[blonde_minx]

Hi I have done a little research on this lovely french silver tea strainer the marks i have found point me to Georgian circa 1798 to 1809 but i have searched everywhere abd still cant find who the maker is, it looks like a J H under a star, hopefully ive been looking at it from the right angle, can anyone help
Happy Christmas to all in the forum and a great big thanks to everyone that gives there time to help
Best wishes
Mandy

[Francais]

I am a little confused why you say "Georgian", the mark is a provincial French guarantee mark. Unfortunately unless there are some other marks or some other provenance it will be very difficult to identify the maker. I will explain later, but first are there any other marks or any idea where in France it came from?
Maurice

[blonde_minx]

Hi if you look at the frecnh guarentee mark this dates it between 1798-1809 as it shows on this website under the french section, i cant find any other marks but will continue looking

[Francais]

I recognize the mark, I just didn't understand what you meant by "Georgian". I realize now you are talking about a period in Britain. Generally one doesn't use Georgian to describe French silver. In any case the problem is there is no single book covering provincial marks for this period. So to find the maker's mark you have to look in one of more than a dozen regional books on 18th century French. Sometimes these books will cover the later "marchands" or "fabricants" in a later section, often almost as an afterthought. That is if you are lucky and the mark is published at all. I checked the regional books I have, no luck.
Your only other chance of identifying the maker is the very outside chance that someone will recognize it or have one of the other regional books.
Sorry.
Maurice

[JayT]

I think everyone is a bit confused about the date of this tea strainer. The guarantee for smalls pictured is, as Maurice states, from the French provinces, but is from 1809-1819 NOT from 1798-1809. The mark for 1798-1809 shown on this website differs from the later guarantee mark in several respects - contour, width, and direction the axe is facing. Therefore your object is 19th C, more in keeping with its form. In my experience French spout strainers were non-existent in the 18th C. Agree that it will be difficult to find the maker. Hope this helps to clarify.

[AG2012]

Was this guarantee for smalls used both in departments and Paris at the time?

[JayT]

No. In 1798-1809 the guarantee mark for small objects is the same for Paris and the provinces. However from 1809-1819 there were two guarantee marks (poinçons de garantie) for smalls. For both, the mark was a bundle of wrapped reeds or fasces (un faisceau de licteurs) around an axe, surrounded by a border. But there are differences between the mark for Paris and the mark for the provinces. Paris has the axe head in the middle of the bundle with its head facing left, and the wrapping on the reeds is an x-shape. For the provinces, the axe head is at the top of the bundle, faces right, and the wrapping on the reeds is diagonal from left to right with 2 horizontal bars, as seen in the example for the spout strainer above. I know this is all very fussy stuff, but essential in determining age and origin. By the way, the moderators might want to find illustrations of the guarantee marks for smalls from 1809-1819, which are missing from the otherwise excellent French marks page.

[dognose]

Hi JayT,

We'll see what can be done to add those images.

Trev.

[JayT]

Great Trev!

[AG2012]

Right JayT! Two pages from Rosenberg; ``die Kleinarbeiten`` - smalls or petite garantie.

[JayT]

My pleasure.

[blonde_minx]

Hi Thank you Maurice for your help it is much appreciated and thank you to everyone else for the interesting information
best wishes
Mandy

[blonde_minx]

Hi i have searched and can find no other marks at all
Mandy

[Francais]

I missed most of this discussion, but better late than never. I never checked what is on this website, as I keep Tardy at hand. I didn't check to see which period we were talking about, since the problem is the same for either, and in fact holds true for later periods, there is no single book that helps after the ancien regime, or for that matter even during. Even for Paris after 1798 you have two have at least two books, and perhaps 3 other lists, at least one on line. Anyway I agree with JayT on everything except that the mark for Paris and the provinces in 1798-1809 being the same. If you look at Tardy they are showed side by side. The differences are slight and in reality almost impossible to see, unless side by side. I didn't bother to check in this case, because the maker's mark is provincial in style. Also because these marks are rather rare, and what would be more important as far a value would not be the date a few years one way or the other, but would be the maker, or region of origin. So the problem is still the same, finding late provincial marks is difficult, and rarely rewarding.
Maurice

[JayT]

Without meaning to challenge Maurice, I’d like to point out that the French guarantee for smalls from 1798-1809 is indeed the same for Paris and the departments. The reproductions in Tardy are not of the best quality, so they can be a source of confusion. You’ll find every other credible reference listing this mark as the same for both Paris and the departments. In particular: Beuque, Nocq, Carré, Arminjon, and Markesana.

[Francais]

Odd that the latest would be wrong. Quite honestly I never heard of the last two references. I would check and agree, but I don't have any way of doing that since the mark is so rare the point is almost mute. Since JayT is more acquainted with this period than I, I will presume he is correct. Still I wouldn't mind doing a comparison if anyone has examples of the marks.
Maurice

[JayT]

[quote="Francais"]Odd that the latest would be wrong. Quite honestly I never heard of the last two references.

Here are the last 2 references that I mentioned:

Catherine Arminjon and others. Dictionnaire des poinçons de fabricants d’ouvrages d’or et d’argent de Paris et de la Seine, 1798-1875. 2 volumes, 1991 and 1994.

This massive reference by Arminjon was published by the French government as a continuation of Le poinçon de Paris, Nocq’s 5-volume work on pre-revolutionary Paris makers. The cost of producing Arminjon’s third volume on Paris marks was too great, so the French Ministry of Culture decided to make an updateable database for makers’ marks from 1876-present, available online.

The book by Yves Markezana is Les poinçons Français d’or, d’argent, de platine de 1275 à nos jours, 2005. To me the interest of this book is the clear line drawings of marks. There is information about the departmental bureaux de garantie by period, which might interest you.

[Francais]

Well now I am thoroughly confused. I, of course, have the two Vol work by Arminjon. I just never noticed the author's name nor read much its text. I only used it for reference as to marks. I guess if I read half the books I have I would be much smarter, but probably wouldn't have earned a dime. But it seems to show, all be it clearer, the two different marks shown in Tardy. The drawings or engravings shown are the ones used by most references. I will try to read all the rather boring text but I am so dyslexique it might take a while. Does she actually say there is only one mark, as it seems to show two? I will look into the last reference you mention, I hope it doesn't cost too much, as I shouldn't be buying more reference books. I am fascinated by the story about the third volume. I never heard that, but it makes sense. My Paris book dealer retired, and I just thought she was trying to get away from my yearly visit and questions about the third volume. I must also point out that unfortunately their photography didn't improve from the second volume. I hope this dialogue isn't too boring itself, as this mark is so rare it is unknown to most.
Maurice