Need help with unusual piece.

[travd3]

This is my first post on the board and really hope someone/anyone can help figure out this mystery piece. I have located and translated two of the four hallmarks on the piece, but have no idea on the other two.

I sent an e-mail to Adrien Von Ferscht of the "Chinese Export Silver" website. He confirmed that it was a Chinese silversmith Lin Lan Cheng, but felt the design was not mainland China. He thought that it may have been made in Singapore, Bangkok, or somewhere like that. He didnt have any info. on the other marks.

I hope you all will help me with this piece as it now has become a personal mission of mine, that needs solving.







(admin photo edit - remember to use the preview button)

[davidross]

Welcome to the Forum.

Looking at the bowl strictly as an object and (momentarily) forgetting about the marks, it looks like a small lidded rice bowl with a design commonly found in northern Burma and northern Thailand, but not necessarily restricted to that region.

A SE Asian bowl with Chinese marks (already identified by Adrien) would suggest that the maker was a Chinese who either worked in Southeast Asia or made pieces for export to that region. There have been sizable Chinese communities throughout SE Asia since at least the early 19th century, so one might conjecture that Liang was a Chinese silversmith who immigrated to the region.

Your bowl does have a very interesting set of marks. In my opinion, the fouled anchor is a particularly unusual mark on an Asian piece, but whether it even has a nautical significance here is impossible to say.

Hopefully someone else will provide a more satisfactory answer.

Regards,
DR

[travd3]

DR

I realized that I had not put the measurements in my post. The item measures approx 1 3/4 in height and the lid measures approx. 2 1/4 across from its widest point . This I think rules out a rice bowl. i would call it, for lack of knowledge, a trinket box.

I tend to agree with you about the Burma/Thailand region. I lived in N. Thailand and other areas in the region while in the military and for some reason it has that feel to it. I don't know why, but it just does. How is that for factual info. ?? The fouled anchor has been a mystery as most that I have seen have the rope going off to the right and this is to the left. The anchor in the mark is also very wide. I don't know if this is due to wear on the bottom of if it was designed that way. The line mark is a complete mystery at this point.

I appreciate your in-site and help. I don't know if I will ever get the info. that I'm looking for, however I will research this (with the help of others) until I find all there is to find.

[dognose]

Hi,

Welcome to the Forum.

Just to add my thoughts on the two mystery marks. The first thing that appears to me is the fact that the anchor punch has been made by a skilled die sinker, and the other, much cruder punch, by less skilled hands. However, I think it possible that these two marks were struck later than the maker's marks and were struck for identification purposes only.

In the army in the 18th/19th century and I suspect in the navy as well, it was customary for new officers to add a piece of silverware to the mess silver, a small gift to their brother officers. Naval Mess silver is usually struck with a anchor mark, and such a punch was likely to have been held by the ship's Armourer, or perhaps by the officer who was accountable for the mess silver. Perhaps another was also added by choice, to identify the actual ship, such a punch would have been made by the ship's Armourer and may well have been a simple device created by cutting a piece of steel rod with varying depths of the saw blade. The device, perhaps meaningless in its design, or perhaps representative of their nation's flag or similar, may have been useful in making a positive identification should some of the silverware go missing.

Trev.

[travd3]

Thanks

Trev
That has to be one of the more interesting posts Ive read in a while. Completely new info. for me. If that was the case, the anchor begins to make sense. Those two marks are what is creating the issue with this piece. They just seem at odds with everything else.

Do you have any info. on what countries or ships used that particular anchor? Its fouled with the rope and leads off to the left.

[dognose]

I'm afraid I don't. It's possible that the mark used by the British Admiralty may have varied over the years. From memory, I recall seeing incuse versions of the mark struck on flatware, but unlike an official hallmark, the design may have not have been so strictly adhered too.

Mess silver appears to fall into two categories, that which is issued by government and is returnable, and that which belongs to the squadron or regiment and is owned and retained by them.

It's a subject that I would like to know more about, and the reason I posted this question a while back: viewtopic.php?f=61&t=34911

Trev.

[travd3]

I have an update to this piece and it looks like we were on the right track. Adrien von Ferscht wrote back and these are his thoughts on the piece;

"Have revisited your bowl and decided it's definitely Siamese [today's Thailand] - Chinese silversmiths did operate in Siam. The work is typically Siamese turn of 19th/20th centuries"

It made me laugh, because I lived in Thailand for a long time and felt I had had seen this style/design somewhere but couldnt place it.

This info. plus Trev's info is helping the puzzle pieces fall into place. I havent had a chance to research whether British ships were traveling to Siam, but am pretty sure they were. Siam/Thailand was never colonized, but was not for lack of trying by other nations.

Much thanks for everyone's help with the info.

[davidross]

Glad to hear that AVF concurs with what I wrote above.

Regarding the use of the object in question, yes, when supplied with the dimensions, it clearly would not have been a rice bowl. Most lidded bowls of this form are larger and usually called "rice bowls," although anyone who has ever eaten sticky rice knows it is nearly impossible to do so from a bowl like this without leaving grains stuck in the repousse. I believe that the silver bowls called "rice bowls" as well as this smaller "trinket box" were probably reserved for ceremonial banquets or for holding offerings placed on a Buddhist altar.

A question for Trev: was the stamping of mess silver a common practice in the militaries of many nations, or was it unique to the UK? It seems highly unlikely that anything but a naval mess would stamp silver with a fouled anchor. While there's no doubt that the British navy sailed the seven seas even long after the subtle shift in naval power was formalized at the Washington Naval Conference of 1922, the French navy certainly was a major presence in SE Asia in the decades culminating in the annexation of French Indochina in 1887 and indeed until the end of the colonial era in the region.

While it has nothing to do with the origins of the trinket box, the oft-repeated assertion that Thailand is a country that escaped colonization (i.e., Western colonization) is only true insofar as one turns a blind eye to the dubious years of WWII, when Thailand become to Asia what Vichy was to Europe, complete with a mostly forgotten puppet regime and a much-celebrated resistance movement.

Regards
DR

[dognose]

I only wish I could add some more information, but my knowledge on the subject is scant and just comes from the odd piece marked in such a fashion that I've seen every now and then, and I feel sure that this kind on marking would not be confined to the Royal Navy alone. I've seen pieces marked with the 'Crow's Foot' pheon mark, that I've assumed are military or ambassadorial government issue, and others with a anchor mark, again, with the assumption of Admiralty issue.

When I think about it, the silver used on board ships much have been a huge target for thieves, far more so than that used by the army, where it was usually stored and used in secure barracks. Ships at dock often only had a few hands on watch, while the rest of crew enjoyed the pleasures of a foreign port following a long voyage, and at such times the silver was no doubt vulnerable and such marking would have been of great assistance in the possible return of lost items.

In an effort to learn more about mess silver, I've invested in a Christmas present for my wife, who I'm sure will be delighted with it ;) 'Military and Naval Silver - Treasures of the Mess and Wardroom' by Roger Perkins. Hopefully after reading it, it may reveal further clues.

Trev.

[travd3]

DR- I apologize for not mentioning your info. as part of the puzzle pieces that have helped ID this piece. It was your first post that was right on with the location of manufacture. Both you and Trev have been a huge help with the research and it is much appreciated.

My wife mentioned that it reminded her of a Thai Buddha sculpture. I asked her what she meant and she showed me the attached image.



I do agree with you in regards to the history and influence that was asserted by other countries in Siam/Thailand's past. There are physical remnants of the past that are still visible throughout the country not to mention the cultural influence.

I will be curious to here what Trev has to say about the question you posed. I had forgotten about the French in SE Asia and their Indochina adventures.

[davidross]

That is funny! I have long suspected that this particular style of repousse work was modeled after either a stupa or the head of a buddha. You probably know that hair curling clockwise in rings is one of the 32 signs of a great man (i.e., a buddha). For this reason, I believe these bowls were appropriate for making offerings on a Buddhist altar (though not necessarily restricted to this use). This is merely educated guesswork, however.

Cheers,
David R