Unknown marks on golfing cup

[lindleyspider]

Can anyone give me guidance on the marks shown in the attached photos? The cup is very battered. It belonged to me father-in law, and is inscribed "Golf Club des Fanges SPA Cambrindge University 21 Aout 1935" - but the marks on the base don't look French. Moreover, the centre piece of the base, which carries the marks, has been (badly) soldered in. Help welcome!

https://picasaweb.google.com/107536975977931597822/SilverCup?authkey=Gv1sRgCIn8k6-fseD1rwE#

[oel]

Hi,

Check out; http://www.925-1000.com/dm_Assay.html
Danish assay mark three towers used from 1913-1939
Danish assay master mark (monogram initials JS) for; Jens Sigsgaard(1932-1960)
Maker's mark unknown to me

Best,

Oel.

[Qrt.S]

The maker is Carl M Cohr.

No dear Oel, not Jens but Johannes Sigisgaard.

[dognose]

Hi Qrt.S,

Johannes V. Jens

There seems to be a 50-50 split in references as to his real first name. Could it be that he was officially one, but known as the other?

Regards, Trev.

[oel]

Hi Qrt.S,

Sigsgaard-Sigisgaard-Siggaard. Try a Google search;jens sigsgaard silver and johannes siggaard silver.
Nothing to be sorry about, mistakes are made and if so we have to confirm and correct our information on; http://www.925-1000.com/dm_Assay.html
Thanks.

Oel.

[lindleyspider]

Fascinating stuff. Thanks, everyone, for your help.

Why the "Golf Club des Fanges" had a Danish-made cup, what Cambridge University were doing there, and why my late father-in-law (who was at Cambridge) took away a trophy I guess I'll never know. But at least now I know who made it, where, and approximately when!

lindleyspider

[Qrt.S]

Too many hits on Google. Better to completely forget Jens Whatever... and concentrate on Johannes Siggaard only. Hopefully dognose will correct the 925 pages asap.

[dognose]

If it's good enough for the National Museum of Denmark....................



Trev.

[Qrt.S]

Yes I know, but it is still incorrect information. I told you it is a very common misunderstanding that has spread all over due to a fatal mistake in a Danish "silverbible"- Due that this disinformation is widely spread. I'm not sure but it might be the book you show. I cannot recall the name of the book but I shall try to find it. Let's also hope the hose will pop in and verify me.

[oel]

Hi Qrt.S,

No matter what but we have to give both names may be like; Johannes Siggaard also known (by mistake) as Jens Sigsgaard or vise versa.


Oel.

[dragonflywink]

Interesting, never noticed the 'Jens Sigsgaard' on this site - and though I cannot say where I originally found the information (doesn't turn up in my very meager Danish silver references on hand), have always known that assay-master as 'Johannes Siggaard' and noted it in my inventory records as such.

Snippet from a 1935 edition of Aarbøger for Nordisk Oldkyndighed og Historie, mentioning "Statsguardejn Johannes Siggaard" in reference to studies on fineness:

Statsguardejn Johannes Siggaard har med sædvanlig Velvilje foretaget de ovenfor meddelte Undersøgelser af Holdigheden.

Another snippet from a 1938 edition of Lovtidende for Kongeriget Danmark, mentioning "Statsguardein Niels Johannes Siggaard", apparently in reference to his salary and pension dating from 1932:

Statsguardein Niels Johannes Siggaard, tillægges der den paagældende Lønningsanciennitet fra 1. Maj 1932 og Pensionsanciennitet fra 1. December 1932.

~Cheryl

[Qrt.S]

Thank you Cheryl for your support, I appreciate it. I have never either noticed this fault in 925 because I know as you do that JS is Johannes Siggard. Anyway, I made some research and contacted some prominent persons last night. This is the case:

This fatal mix Johannes/Jens occurs in every book irrespective of its language that has copied information from Chr. A. Bøje's original book "Danske Guld og sølv smedemærker" published 1943. There is also another edition of the same book in three volumes published in 1979, which are probably the books this fault relates to and all that have copied it refers to as the source. My friend who revealed this fault contacted a very well know silver expert in Denmark. Koldinghus museum's managing director Poul Dedenroth-Schou in order to solve this guardian name problem. After thorough investigations it became clear without any doubts whatsoever that the guardian's name is Johannes Siggaard appointed in 1932..

I have in my possession a copy of a letter written by Poul Dedenroth-Schou verifying what I have written above. Because it is a personal letter I will not publish it without permission from the receiver. In addition, it is in Danish, so you probably wouldn't understand it anyway.

It is not at all uncommon that silver books are copied and translated without checking their content. During this process new faults are made. There are plenty of examples of this problem. I'm more interested in Russian silver. Unfortunately I have noticed that "some" Russian books are poorly copied into English. The result is full of misspellings, faults, errors misunderstandings, you name it. What I stated goes for other books too. Nobody is perfect!

I have always said and understood that silver marks is not an absolute science, as mentioned above faults and errors might occur. Chr. A. Bøje made one, which is understandable. But what I don't understand is that when I try to correct an error some people don't believe in me. That is not a good feeling. Moreover, when I state something, I usually have it checked and verified in advance.

Now dear Dognose, just correct the error and forget Jens Sigsgaard forever! You too dear Oel. Then we can consider this case settled and close it.

Nonetheless, I believe that "hose_dk" will pop in sooner or later and verify what I have written above.

[dognose]

Hi Qrt.S

But what I don't understand is that when I try to correct an error some people don't believe in me.

Whoa...Qrt.S, nobody said they did not believe you, and I for one do not doubt you for a second, but I refer you back to my first post in this topic. You have already stated that Jens Siggaard was a writer, who was presumably very well known in Denmark. It is quite normal for people with similar names to those of the famous to be called by their well known counterpart's name, and this often sticks with them from childhood and for the rest of their lives. I knew a guy for over forty years with the same surname as a film star, everybody used to address him the star's forename, even though his surname was spelt differently, since he was a child including his family, this was how he was known all his life, he never used his real name. Perhaps Johannes became known as Jens for just that reason. Who knows? Maybe one day someone that knew him personally will see this topic and provide an answer.

However, I take your point and that page in the Encyclopedia will be updated.

Regards, Trev.

[Qrt.S]

Thank you for correcting the Encyclopedia. Nonetheless, this mix with Jens and Johannes is so widely spread that it seems to be almost impossible to correct it. I'm doing it again now. I have done it in so many times that I don't even remember anymore. That is why I felt this situation rather annoying.....again! (Sorry about that!) When I tell the truth someone pops in and says...Yes but the museum's page or whatever other source tells something else. They are all wrong, there is no "but". The guardian JS is and remains as Johannes Siggaard!

Have a nice evening all of you

Qrt.S

[oel]

Hi Qrt.S,

Thanks and I never doubted your statement, I will forget Jens Sigsgaard but for the benefit of others I believe we could state; Johannes Siggaard sometimes incorrectly named……..

Best,

Oel

[Qrt.S]

Hello Oel,

Not a bad idea, not at all dear Oel. Such statement might eliminate unnecessary questions...

Rgds

Qrt.S

[Hose_dk]

the name appers in Bøje - and thereby have authority. I have followed the debat at a swedish internet page and I know the person who did the research. He is very accurate so I have no reason but to believ that he has done a prober research. As Our Finnish friend points out.
I would suggest that you make a note at http://www.925-1000.com/dm_Assay.html
say that Bøje ........ nbut research have shown..... :)