very old german ? silver christening bowl

PHOTOS REQUIRED - marks + item
Johannes
Posts: 33
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:47 am

very old german ? silver christening bowl

Postby Johannes » Wed Jul 11, 2012 6:08 am

Hello,
can somebody help me to identify this object. i think its a very old German christening bowl, the porcelain is maybe Asian (Japan) ?, can somebody tell me the source, function and age ? is it possible to identify the mark
thank you for your help
Johannes
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davidross
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Re: very old german ? silver christening bowl

Postby davidross » Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:07 am

This looks like a teacup with later silver mounts. What are the dimensions?

Regarding the porcelain, the square blue mark to the underside appears to be a very crudely drawn "Great Qing Year Made" (Da Qiang Nian Zhi) mark. Currently, there is considerable debate about whether such marks are Chinese and date from the late Qing / early Republican periods (roughly, 1890s - 1930s), are Japanese and date to the late Edo period (mid-nineteenth century) or perhaps earlier, or if these marks were used in both countries. A close-up photo of the mark would be helpful, as well as a photo of the blue design on the inside of the bowl.

While I would defer to the European experts regarding the mounts, the hand-scratched numbers and letters to the underside appear to be a workman's or owner's mark rather than a hallmark. If the piece is silver, it should have a hallmark on it somewhere, although it may be quite small and difficult to see.

The inscription around the foot of the mounts may provide important clues to identification. Here, too, a close-up, as well as a transcription, might be helpful.

Regards

David R

Bahner
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Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: very old german ? silver christening bowl

Postby Bahner » Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:03 pm

Hello, believe the inscription reads "Wichtt 8 1/2 Lott", a somewhat oldfashioned way of saying that the fineness is eight and a half lot, equals 531,25 /1000 fine. There should be no hall mark, as a fineness that low was never legal in Germany. Best wishes, Bahner

Johannes
Posts: 33
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:47 am

Re: very old german ? silver christening bowl

Postby Johannes » Thu Jul 12, 2012 5:18 am

hello,
i post new fotos. i hope it will be helpfull to identify the bowl. the inscription is

" DESTA MI : BI FRO UNDE : SPADT / BEHT ALLE MIN DONT EINDE HAT /ALLE MIN DONT UND EFANGEN AN / GESCHICHT IN IESU CHRISTI NAMEN "

i cannot find a mark on the mounts

best regards
Johannes
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Theoderich
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Re: very old german ? silver christening bowl

Postby Theoderich » Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:58 pm

Bahner wrote:Hello, believe the inscription reads "Wichtt 8 1/2 Lott", a somewhat oldfashioned way of saying that the fineness is eight and a half lot, equals 531,25 /1000 fine. There should be no hall mark, as a fineness that low was never legal in Germany. Best wishes, Bahner


Now I think it could be also the weight

14,606 g vor Mai 1856 in Preußen, Anhalt, Hessen, Homburg, Frankfurt a. M., Lippe-Detmold, Schaumburg-Lippe, Mecklenburg-Strelitz, Nassau, Reuß, Sachsen, S-Altenburg, S-Coburg, S-Gotha, S-Weimar, Schwarzburg-Rudolstadt, Schwarzburg-Sondershausen, Waldeck und Württemberg
15,1 g in Mecklenburg-Schwerin
15,2 g in Lübeck
15,6 g in Baden, Bremen and Großherzogtum Hessen
15,6 g in Bayern
15,9 g in Sachsen-Meiningen
16,0 g in Ostpreußen
17,5 g in Österreich
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lot_(Einheit)
8.5* 16.5 = 140 gramm

Johannes
Posts: 33
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:47 am

Re: very old german ? silver christening bowl

Postby Johannes » Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:41 am

Hello,
i think thats a good idea. the complete weight is 304 Gramm. the Kumme without the mount are ca. 170 Gramm. can somebody tell me somthing about the language of the inscription ( dutch / plattdeutsch / mittelhochdeutsch / althochdeutsch ? ). i think the translation is " all mein tun und handeln, geschieht in jesu christi namen, deshalb ????? bei früh und spät, bis alle meine taten ein ende haben ". can somebody tell me how old the bowl is, is it baroque around 1720 ???
thank you
Johannes

AG2012
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Re: very old german ? silver christening bowl

Postby AG2012 » Sun Jul 22, 2012 4:36 am

A Chinese bowl mounted in church silver in Europe. Why should one do that? Because as late as 1709 Böttger notified the king about the invention of porcelain, the first porcelain in Europe. In a word, the bowl was considered precious, and most probably a gift to the church. Unless the bowl itself was a precious antique and mounted later. ``Considered precious ``; after all, how do we know the owner of the bowl had any idea of the porcelain he had?
Silver was excellently elaborated here; not marked with legal German loths. You can test silver easily; if 530/1000 or so,it will hardly turn red.But clean the place you test - patina gives deeper red.
My humble opinion; better search to identify porcelain.This is not easy,though,particularly not based on pictures only.Besides,Chinese copied their own porcelain centuries later.

davidross
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Re: very old german ? silver christening bowl

Postby davidross » Sun Jul 22, 2012 1:15 pm

The mark on the base of the bowl is a series of cross-hatched lines that do not form any Chinese (or Japanese) character. This type of mark imitates a Qing Dynasty mark. The mark is not meant to deceive, it is far too crudely drawn to deceive anyone and is merely decorative. Usually, such marks are made by Japanese potters working from Chinese models. The style of painting and the colours also point to Japan rather than China.

In China, this kind of porcelain was produced in great quantities during the late Ming Dynasty and exported throughout SE Asia and to Japan. In Japan, this kind of porcelain is called akae ("red decoration"), and was produced locally from the late 18th century. If the bowl is Japanese (as I suspect), it almost certainly dates to the early to mid 19th century.

The repairs to the bowl would suggest that it was prized by former owners and treated as a very rare object. This would be true of any piece of porcelain exported from the Far East (Japan in particular) before the opening of Japan to the West in the 1860s.

As AG2012 notes, Asian art forms (such as akae) were perennially popular over many centuries, and these red wares that were first produced in China over 500 years ago are still being produced in China and Japan today, albeit in modified forms. Indeed, the same can be said for the Baroque taste in Europe and beyond--very few objects with fanciful Baroque designs actually date from the 17th century.

If you would like a second opinion about the mark on the base of the porcelain bowl, please consider posting a query at the Gotheborg site in Sweden:

http://gotheborg.com/

Regards

David R

Johannes
Posts: 33
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:47 am

Re: very old german ? silver christening bowl

Postby Johannes » Thu Jul 26, 2012 6:51 am

hello,

thank you very much for the information, it will assist me in further research.

best regards

johannes


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