Help Russian marks cigarette case

[nexo2]

Someone can help me with this cigarette?. I do not find this brand in the listing. thank you very much

[dognose]

Hi,

Welcome to the Forum.

It would help our experts greatly, if you would post large sharp images of all the marks on the item.

Trev.

[Zolotnik]

Hi nexo2 -

be so kind and show clear photos of the marks on the rim (red arrow) and the Russian marks (on both(!) halfs of the cigarette case). Further more compare the measurements of your case and of the given sketches - in my opinion it looks like a "repainted" Austrian - Hungarian case (format, details of rubberband fastener, renewed pushbutton etc.).





Regards
Zolotnik

[nexo2]

I hope the quality is sufficient. The size is 11x9 cm. Thank you very much for your trouble.

[Qrt.S]

Your cigarette case is made in Moscow 1899-1908 but unfortunately the name of the maker is unknown.

[Zolotnik]

Hi nexo2 -

the shown mark, see photo, is from an maker from Moscow, whose name is not known anymore or is lost. The only objects he made were tea glass holders - no cigarette cases and no enamel painting. As mentioned before - the format is not typical - in my opinion a contemporary make with phantasy marks.



Regards

Zolotnik

[nexo2]

I appreciate the time spent and the speed of responses. Thank you very much.

[AG2012]

Enamel gets easily damaged. It can be totally removed with possible new painting (not only ``painting`` but firing).
Could not resist mentioning:
1. There are more different sizes of Russian cigarette cases than shown in drawings submitted.
2. Data on ``unknown maker`` are so scarce, even his name is not known and let alone what he made.
3. We had a gifted Russian enamel painter years ago who made Orthodox saints on small gold pendants, slightly bigger than thumbnail; his price was $ 75 for one pendant. I recall he also made portraits about 4`` x 3 `` at $ 500.
4. Supposedly faked marks had to be struck before enameling for obvious reasons (after removing genuine marks which are not seen, nor even their traces).Hiding the traces of removed genuine marks would mean new gilding, whatever process used, and then rubbing it off to look old.
5.Steel pin in the hinge had to be removed and the lid fired. Assembling the box with well working hinge is not easy at all.
6. Last, but not the least, if any fake is done to make profit, why should one undertake such an expensive, highly skilled and possibly dangerous task (mercury gilding) and then strike the item with unknown master’s mark? The owner of this cigarette case knows how much he paid for it, and we all know its approximate value. If the price was not excessive the faker was stupid, which I doubt. But it could be an old fake emerging now, right? When did Russian silver become lucrative and sought for? If the enameler was so skilled (and he was) he would be better off with a nude and genuine German or Austrian marks.

[Zolotnik]

AG2012 - the new expert for Russian objects! As always the proof of the mentioned arguments is missing.

1) show the missing sizes...
2) there are thousands of "unknown" masters - because the files were destroyed at a certain time. Of most is known what they made - there exist a lot of objects....
3) so what?
4) maybe it could help to learn more about the industrially technique of faking Russian objects in China and elsewhere....
5) the pin for the hinge is always brass - not steel....
6) highly skilled - dangerous - etc., etc.

My stereotype answer to the sermon:
I've never understood the urge to "learn" about fakes. It's a waste of time. Spend that energy learning about the real thing and you'll know the fakes when you see them because they won't look like the real thing. No matter how much you "learn" about fakes, you'll never know everything about them so it's literally an all-consuming time-suck that has no value since every day new fakes hit the market.

Regards
Zolotnik

[AG2012]

Too rigid,too rigid.And no sound reasoning.Let`s blame the Chinese,though.Your closing words as always.

[AG2012]

Recalled now;it was Postnikov with the sizes.But he was more flexible;``Here are the usual measures and forms`` USUAL
How did it turn to ALL sizes made? SEVEN sizes altogether for so common product throughout Russia.I really have no idea.Probably Russian legislation;``Let me see your cigarette case! The size does not fit! You will get 10 years in Siberia for that!``
Or within the frame of this forum:``Your cigarette case is 1/4 inches shorter.It is a fake!``
But again,let`s blame the Chinese.

[nexo2]

Dear Sirs, the origin of the cigarette was a gift to the wife of a consul of the United Kingdom, during his time in the Middle East, I remember in Turkey in the early twentieth century. The damage is in the enamel was due to a fire at home. Besides wearing a chain which does not have data. I was given by his daughter before returning to England.

[Zolotnik]

Hi nexo2 -

an "interesting" story is no proof for authenticity - only the facts! The cigarette case has the typical cuhion form - absolute unusual in Russia, but very en vogue in Austria-Hungary and Great Britain. Several other details speak explicit against a Russian manufacture - I do not like to repeat me over and over again. Russian silver is Russian silver, with very charakteristic, unique features. If several are missing - it is not Russian silver. It is as easy like that....Is a goat born in a horse stable a goat or a horse?

@AG2012
I am sure that you know the facts of "decades of observation of everlasting matches" - and yes, if your cigarette case is 1/4 inches shorter it is not Russian. With Russian marks it is a fake!

Regards
Zolotnik

[AG2012]

My dear Zolotnik,
Please, let’s end the discussion leading nowhere; OK — there were only 7 prescribed and legislated forms and dimensions of cigarette cases in Russia. I cannot prove otherwise, because some of mine are 1/4 inches shorter and therefore fakes. I can live with that, honestly. On the other hand, you have not offered a proof, either. The method leading to the above conclusion (seven forms) is very interesting. It is based on your collection. Statistical inference i.e. drawing conclusion from random sampling (or even less reliable accidental sampling we have here) led to wrong conclusion. Collection of 350 cigarette cases or so (``the sample`` in statistics) within a statistical ``population`` of probably tens of millions cases made is nothing, with wrong statistical conclusion of any kind. In layman’s words and a parallel easy to understand; chose randomly 350 people in Amsterdam e.g., measure their height, calculate mean value and draw the conclusion about the average height of the entire population of The Netherlands (close to 17 million). Utterly wrong.
On the other hand, we would like to see a documented proof there were only seven forms of cases made in Russia at the time - a legislation, or whatever. Besides, there is only one ``rounded form`` 10X5 cm shown in the drawings. It is beyond any logic this was the only form of the kind made.
And last, but not the least, your own description was ``Grundformen`` (for those not familiar with German, the closest translation is ``basic forms``). But of course, you took care then when writing, an excellent article by the way, not to be rigid with the conclusion — therefore ``Grundformen``.
So, let’s accept your own conclusion published: ``Grundformen`` your own conclusion, your own article and your own words (``basic forms``). On the other hand, if you have sound arguments against your own words and against your own conclusion — go on. But that should not belong here.
Kindest regards

[Zolotnik]

Hi AG2012 -

having countless objects "at hand" is a big advantage for my work and my investigations - I can compare, touch, measure and blow up details. But I am not omniscient and also make mistakes!It is a pity that on this forum are not many collectors - we could brainstorm and exchange found insights instead of fighting about vague guesses and "wisdom" out of books. I always try to provide what I know or learned.
We both know that fakes are getting better and better (90% of the offered Russian silver are fakes) and that it is important to warn the "novices" and prevent financial losses if possible. Maybe I am fighting against windmills....

Regards
Zolotnik

[AG2012]

If we only had a chance to sit together and examine either suspicious or genuine pieces, I am almost 100% sure we would agree on everything. I do not rely on books at all; fortunately I have spent some time working with silver. The future will tell — I am sure our opinions will not diverge - sometimes it will be easy (like the cut glass ``Faberge `` we had a few days ago), sometimes it will be more difficult if based on photos only. We should try to give people decent answers and explain to them within our powers, of course. As you know, the problem with Russian silver is its profitability; the utmost stupidity I have seen today — very rare Limerick, Ireland, 1785 silver with faked ``84``. The piece ruined. Btw.I have collected Imperial Russian porcelain, too; fortunately not easy to fake and not too expensive, except for rare pieces I cannot afford anyway.
Good night for now