Why two Makers Marks or are there two?

[BnkrMac]

This silver tea service was purchased in Paris in 1926 or 27 by my wife's Grandfather at La Vieux Russie [sp?] - supposedly belonged to Russian Nobleman - case is wooden, covered in Leather - marks are consistent on all pieces. My question is that there appear to be more marks than I would expect - the NP looks like Nichols & Plinke - but the city mark above the initials is blurred. The assayer looks like Edward Brandenburg, and the final city mark looks like St Petersburg. But what's the PK between Assayer mark and 84?http://www.flickr.com/photos/bnkrmac/7359633732/in/photostream

[Zolotnik]

Hi BnkrMac -

in spite of the interesting story - the shown marks are very dubious. I do not want to go into details (if you read the Russian forum you will learn that 90% or more of the shown objects are fakes - and most have better marks). Just one hint: the shown mark of Nikols and Plinke must look like that: N:P, N.P. or N&P in different cartouches. Please compare with your mark. The PK mark is pure phantasy and sensless and should look like a makers mark (which did not exist in the given years), N&P the vendor. Best you speak with the firm, now in New York I think...

Regards
Zolotnik

[Qrt.S]

I'm sorry but this time I must disagree with you Zolotnik. I don't see any problems with the marks, quite ordinary marks for NP. Please note that Nichols and Plinke (1829-1870) used many marks. Here they are:
N·P, NP, KA, N.P., PK N&P, N&P MAG·ANG and N:P.

If somebody wonder what this MAG·ANG stads for, i.e. Magazin Anglais alias Anglinsky shop. Owners were William Plinke and Konstantin Nichols - both Englishmen by origin but also having Russian citizenship since 1808. Both were hereditary honoured citizens, merchants of 1st order and court suppliers.

Nichols and Plinke's marking should be understood such that this N·P is their trade mark and PK (PlincKe?) the workmaster. Unfortunately he is unknown to name. This Pk mark can have a rectangular shield but also a shield with so rounded corner that it is almost an oval.

This same question has been debated in an earlier thread if I recall it correctly. The answer, however, is the same, no problem detected with the marks.

Have a nice evening

Qrt.S

[Zolotnik]

Hi Qrt.S -

what about the eagle - Court jeweller???? Please show some photos of other original marks of Nichols&Plinke (quite ordinary - you have seen them all) to compare....

Regards
Zolotnik

[Qrt.S]

Hello Zolotnik,

Never said I've seen them all..but here are some...

[Qrt.S]

Zolotnik! There is quite a difference between court supplier and court jeweler. I wrote court supplier, not jeweler!

[Juke]

Hi!

I have some N&P silver with same markings as shown by Qrt.S so I agree here with him.

If possible BnkrMac it would be very interesting to see the tea set so if you can show a photo of it.

Regards,
Juke

[Zolotnik]

Hi all -

it is interesting that the marks (mostly fakes) are more discussed than the objects! All the shown marks are fake marks - copied and copied and copied - after some time they show up in fora as authentic , later they can be seen in books. The eagle is the best...Where are the objects?
Here an other fake mark:



Some real informations about the firm :



Courtesy Dr. Vyacheslav Mukhin

Regards
Zolotnik

[BnkrMac]

I will be happy to post pictures of the tea service - but am now traveling, so it will be a few days until I can get to my home computer. Very interesting discussion - thanks for the comments. BnkrMac

[BnkrMac]

Here are some pictures of the tea service in the carrying case http://www.flickr.com/photos/bnkrmac/?uploaded=3&magic_cookie=f235412297ea90fff7f2d7d717635f7f

[oel]

Hi,

Thanks, is it possible to show us some close ups of the items standing out of the case and close ups of the marks on the tea & coffeepot, sugar jar, milk can and spirit burner?

Oel.

[Qrt.S]

Yes some close-ups would be nice. Please show all possible marks on an object. According to the Russian legislation every detachable part must be marked. That means that, as an example, the tea pot must have marks on the body, on the bottom ring, on the handle, on the spout and on the inside of the lid.

[oel]

Hi Qrt.S,

Please correct me if I am wrong but I believe the marking of detachable part has been enforced somewhere around / after 1873 or have I been misinformed?

Best,

Oel.

[Zolotnik]

Hi all -
as the tea service is in the posession of BnkrMac [:-)] it should be no problem to provide some meaningful detail photos.
Just for your information: Nichols & Plinke was in first line famous for his tea sets. I never have seen trays from this firm with the shown handles...
Enclosed are 2 faked trays (very common nowadays on eBay and other auction sites or houses. Just for comparison.) - have a look at the handles...







Regards
Zolotnik

[Qrt.S]

Hello Oel,
You are both right and wrong. The assay charter of 1861 stipulates that soldered parts can be left unmarked but other parts must have marks (hinged, riveted etc...). In 1879 the charter states that the main part must carry the whole set of hallmarks while the other parts are marked with the fineness and town mark only. In 1882 it is allowed for the first time to bring finished object to the assay office for hallmarking and that some joined parts can be left unmarked (very unclear regulation). Unfortunately I'm unable to access my library right now so I have to rely on my memory only. But you are right in that sense that around the turn of the century it was stipulated that all joined parts do not necessary have to be marked. Sorry cannot I recall the year...However, please note that the object we discuss is from 1858.

[AG2012]

Hello BnkrMac
Do not get disappointed with answers - you have beautiful genuine Russian silver.

[Zolotnik]

Hello BnkrMac
Do not get disappointed with answers - you have beautiful genuine Russian silver.

Now only the proof is missing - and all the necessary detail photos! Good work!

Regards
Zolotnik

[oel]

Hi All

Sorry to say but I have deleted the previous posts. We consider this end of conversation. No way will we be manipulated. Time out and think before react.

Regards,

Oel.