Baccarat Silver vase mark identification

[Kipadog]

Can someone please help to identify the maker on the vase? It is 27 cm tall and 10 cm across at the top. The bottom of the crystal vase has Baccarat etched symbol, which may help date it. I was told the origins were from Russia for the silver top. Thank you

http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh4 ... rmark2.jpg

http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh4 ... atVase.jpg

[oel]

Hi Kipadog,

Welcome to the forum.

The image you made of the marks is not clear. For the best result, please try to capture the marks by using the macro function (tulip mode) of a good modern camera. Good luck!

Oel

[Kipadog]

Oel, thanks for the tip. Worked much better. here is the link to a clearer photo. Hope it helps and someone can tell me what it is. K

http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh481/kipadog/Silvermark.jpg

[Kipadog]

I thought maybe the mark from other vase would be clearer. There are two matching vases. The tiny dots are hard to clean and I'm having difficulty getting a good pic because of the curvature. If there are hints to better pics, or cleaning the tarnish please let me know. Thanks for all the help.

here is the mark from the 2nd, matching vase.

http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh481/kipadog/silvermark2ndvase.jpg

[oel]

Hi Kipadog,

Domestic Russian hallmarks used 1908-1926

You are showing us a Russian compound hallmark comprised of two individual elements. The first element portrays the national core image; woman’s head facing right wearing a kokoshnik, as an assay office identity stamp within a circular frame-shape. The circular assay office identity mark used a dot and dash code system to identify the location of the administrative region responsible for that items assay. However on your image of the assay office stamp the dots and dash code is not visible. The second element represents the silver‘s fineness in a cut-corner square frame-shape; 84 zolotniki or 87.5% pure silver. These hallmarks were used on moveable but attached parts. In the middle we see the maker’s mark; his initials in Cyrillic; a С П in oval shield has been registered in St.Petersburg (Postnikova # 1411) for; Pawlow Semen Pawlowitsh 1898- 19?

Oel.

PS.St. Petersburg assay office, for identification, should have placed one dot under the chin of this lovely kokoshnik

[Qrt.S]

I have been looking on this thread quite a while and noticed that we have some problems here. The first problem is that the kokshnik on the object is a compound mark. As Oel says it is punched on detachable parts and cannot be a stand alone mark. Its "companion" is the main kokshnik hallmark, a triple poincon, in an oval frame consisting of the cypher of the assay office, a Greek letter, and the fineness figures (and the kokshnik of course). This mark is missing or you are not showing it. The second problem is that you are not telling us what marks there are (or are they any?) on the two rings/grips. The rings should carry marks because they seem to be separate/detachable parts, if not marked, we have an another problem. The third problem is that P#1411 ПС has no dots but the initials on the object have dots; П.С.. A have my doubts of the master being Semen Pavlov. All in all it means that the marking looks incomplete. That is very uncommon for a genuine Russian object.

[Juke]

Hi!

I agree with Qrt.S, I also have my doubts. Also the font is wrong and the makers mark look like home made. I have seen these kind of markings before and they have not been on authentic items.

Regards,
Juke

[Kipadog]

Where on the wreath would I look for a mark? It took me a while to find the dots for this mark. (I'm obviously not a collector, though this process has been very educational.) I took another picture of the mark with a light, and I think the marks you're referring to are now visible. I'm going to attach a pic of the two vases together, and a close up of one wreath, so if you can refer me to where to look for the wreath dot I will. The vases were gifts from my former mother in law in Malmo 16 years ago. I'm planning on giving them to my daughters one day and am interested in being able to tell them something about the vases so the reason for my posts.


http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh481/kipadog/silvervase2marklight.jpg

http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh481/kipadog/PairofBaccaratvases.jpg

http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh481/kipadog/wreathpatternonvase.jpg

[oel]

Hi,

I believe Qrt.S is referring to the mark below; the three-element inclusive hallmark in an oval frame consisting of the 'cipher' of the assay office, a Greek letter (?), the woman’s head wearing a kokoshnik, facing right and the fineness figures.

You would expect the three-element hallmark on the silverwork attached to the glass of the vase.

Every moveable but attached part should show a compound mark;

You would expect compound marks on the wreaths.

Oel.

[Qrt.S]

Thank you Oel that is exactly what I mean. I was just to send the same marks in order to show how the marking should be. I couldn't have done it better.

Nonetheless, if the marks are not in place it is reason to believe that something is not in place...sorry.

[Dad]

Hi, All.

The procedure of marking of silver subjects can be learned in "Rules of punching... 1908". On this item punches are put correctly. On a silver frame of a crystal vase should be put:

1. Maker mark
2. Mark of finess
3. A sign of the state guarantee (a kokoshnik in a circle)

That's all.

The "hallmark in an oval frame" here shouldn't be.

For example :



But I can't guarantee authenticity. More accurate and large photos of punches are necessary.))))

Best Reg..

[Qrt.S]

Better not guarantee anything. The mark you show in your example Dad, is not a compound mark but the hallmark Oel is talking about, i.e. the mark with the dot/dash code for assaying office identification. This is not the case here. The mark on the vase is not this mark but a compound mark or looks very much as it. Still the problems remain that there are no marks on the wreaths/handles and they are detachable parts. In addition, the maker's mark cannot be identified. However, we need better close ups.

[Zolotnik]

Hi all -
just returned from Russia - therefore the late answer.
Dad wrote the right answer - cristall plus silver mountings were differently marked!
Another example from my collection:
cake plate silver/cristall from the Moscow 15th Artel (the fourth mark you see was only used by the 15th Artel, something interne I suppose)





The maker is Prochorov Stepan (1866-1894) from Moscow. If the cristall is from Baccarat (?)....you showed no marks! I doubt this, because the mounting is very simple made.

Regards
Zolotnik

[Qrt.S]

Stepan Prohorov's punch has a rectangular shield and there are no dot between and after the initials. Here are clearly visible dots...In addition, the frame is an oval.

[Kipadog]

Thank you everyone for your feedback and suggestions. I have attached a copy of the "Baccarat" etching on the bottom. From what I could find on Google, at least here in the US, the Baccarat mark would be 20th century. Of course I also believe there is lots of erroneous information on the internet. Given the most recent post, it appears that you may know if the Baccarat symbol is real or not. I've attached a link

http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh481/kipadog/Baccaratetchingonvase2.jpg

I have just left for a biz trip for a couple of weeks, but when I'm back I've realized I need to get better silver cleaner and a magnifying glass. Once I get the wreaths clean enough to look for a mark, I"ll look for them. Can someone let me know where on the wreath to look? or would it be on the piece that the wreath attaches to, and that piece attaches to the silver top of the vase? (sorry I don't know what it's called) And I'm assuming both wreaths detach so therefor there should be a mark on each piece (look for 4 marks)?

Thank you again for your help. If it turns out there really isn't a history to the vase, at least I've learned about Russian silver. Kd

[Zolotnik]

Hi Kipadog -

there are 2 possibilities:
1) Your cristall objects are original Russian made (the marking looks like that, but there must be additional marks on the handles etc. - otherwise "FAKE"!
2) Your cristall objects were made somewhere and later "Russificated" together with the false Baccarat logo to cheat.

Here the Baccarat logo - right and wrong:





Regards
Zolotnik

[oel]

Hi All,

Welcome back Zolotnik, I do hope you had a great time in Russia and next time please sent us a postcard from Russia with love.

According to Mark Chervenka ‘Guide to Fake & Forged Marks’ about Baccarat and the logo’s kindly showed by Zolotnik; the most common authentic mark on clear cut crystal is a circular design that may appear as either an acid stamp or a paper label. There are numerous fake acid stamps, the most common is simply the word “Baccarat” in a straight line of block letters (acid etched). Most attempts to fake the circular mark result in smudged and blurred letters (shown by Zolotnik). Authentic circular acid stamps are quite small, just slightly over one-quarter inch diameter with sharp lettering.

Warning the Baccarat fakes are getting better and harder to detect, trustworthy provenance, an authentic bill of sale could be very helpful to determine between fake or real.

Oel.

PS; The maker can not be Prochorov Stepan (1866-1894) from Moscow because the hallmarks supposed to be; Domestic Russian hallmarks used 1908-1926

[Kipadog]

Thanks again for the help. I looked on the handles, and found this one as noted below. It doesn't have the four marks as referenced in Zolotnik's post so should I assume a fake? I also tried to get a better picture of the marks on the rim. Still not a great photo but better than before. If the marks are still dubious, then I will stop polishing looking for more marks. Kd

http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh481/kipadog/markonwreath.jpg

http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh481/kipadog/DSC00524.jpg

[Zolotnik]

Hi Kipadog -

if the additional part(s) are stamped with the control mark (head) - everything is legal!





The little dot right of the chin indicates assay St. Petersburg - not Moscow - sorry my fault. The only maker´s mark I found - but without dots (!) is



Pavlov, Semen Pavlowitsch, 1898 - ?

One has to inspect it closely in person - photos are not always sufficient, it looks authentic - exept the Baccarat mark.

Regards
Zolotnik

[AG2012]

One should always be suspicious with glass mounted in wherever metal; Zolotnink suspected Baccarat cut glass. Supporting his point of view, I have attached the photo of the most betraying part — where silver and metal were joined. This can tell us even more than acid etched stamp Baccarat mark.
1. Wheel cut of the rim is uneven, as clearly seen, and left visible and exposed to the naked eye. This should not have happened. There was a huge amount of Bohemian glass exported to UK and mounted there but it was perfectly done. Why should one assume Baccarat was inferior with wheel cutting? On contrary.
2. What is the stuff leaking out under silver mounting in drops and hardened? (Arrows).
They have never used plaster-of Paris; the closest formula I managed to find and make myself is some kind of ``gesso`` mixing Scotch glue and titanium oxide.
In short — one cannot accept Baccarat glass mounted in silver with the stuff spilling out; unless the outer diameter of the glass did not fit the silver and had to be filled, just supporting the idea of cut glass being added or replaced later. On the other hand, we have all seen mounted glass falling out of metal rims and then fixed back clumsily.
In a word I do not like the way silver is mounted to the glass here.