Bergen Silversmiths

[alan.spey]

I am trying to do some research into the Egelsdorf and Greve Families who were Silversmiths in Bergen throughout the Eighteenth Century and continued until the death of Jan Jansen Greve the younger in 1846.
Jorgen Jorgensen Egelsdorf the elder I understand to have been active in Bergen between 1721 until his death in 1737.
I do not have a birth or death date for the younger Egelsdorf but I know that his sister married into the Greve family in 1737 and that she was born in 1711. She lived until a great age for those times dying in 1796.
Bergen Silver of that period does not carry a date mark. Did both Egelsdorfs use the same Mark and if not how did they differ?
The only mark I have seen for Greve is that for the younger because by that time Bergen silver carried not only a year mark but an Astrological Sign to indicate more exactly the time of year that the piece was "assayed" as well as the "masters" Mark.
When did the practice of Assaying and Dating start for Bergen Silver?
There are a number of Greves who were Silversmiths descended from the earliest Silversmith Jan Arentsen Greve , who married Maren Egelsdorf. He was born in 1705 and died in 1773. They had three sons all of whom were Siversmiths, Arent Jansen Greve 1733-1808, Georg Jansen Greve 1735-1804 andJan Jansen Greve the elder 1738- 1809. I have only seen the Mark for the younger Jan Jansen Greve and wonder whether he used the same mark as his father?
Any information on other marks for either his uncles or his father or even his grandfather would also be very welcome.
I look forward to someone knowing a great deal more on this subject than I do!

[Qrt.S]

Hello,
I don’t know whether I know a great deal more than you do…., but maybe I can fill in at least some blanks.
The first Norwegian silver marking regulations can be traced back to 1314 (Håkon V). It was mainly a silver fineness regulation 950/1000 but the legal fineness has varied through the centuries. 1491 14 loth (875/1000). As from 1608 13½ loth (843/1000) and in the 19th century 131/4 loth (828,10/1000). As from 1891 830/1000. The gold fineness is another story.

Town marks are used as from 1491. Bergen used the letter B crowned. In the 18th century they started to more use the town crest.

Bergen Gullsmedslaug was founded in 1568 and they got their first guardein/assayer in 1740. The zodiac marks were used 1766-1820. As from 1821 numbers were used to indicate the month.

Kindly remember that silver marks are not an absolute science, variations may occur.

The requested masters:

Jørgen Jørgensen Egelsdorf d.e. born ?, died 1751. He marked iis in a round frame or IIE (in script) in an oval shield 1704-1737-?

Jørgen Jørgensen Egelsdorf d.y. born ? died ? He did not use his father’s mark and marked IIS in a square shield with rounded corners with the year below the initials but in the shield.

Jan Jansen Greve d.e. born 1738, died 1809. He marked 1764-1808 IIG in a rectangular shield and below the maker’s mark the year in a separate rectangular shield.

Jan Jansen Greve d.y. born 1772, died 1846. He marked 1795-1846 IIG in a rectangular shield with rounded corners or JJG (in script) in a rectangular shield.

Jan Arent Greve born 1733, died 1808. He marked AG in a round shield 1774-1808.

Jan Arentsen Greve born 1795 died 1773. He marked 1731-1773 iAG in a “shield”

Lars Nielsen Greve born 1719 died 1795. He marked LG, LG( in script)or LG with the year below in a “shield”.

Jørgen Jansen Greve born ? died 1804. He marked IG with the year below in a “shield” 1758-1804.

All above-mentioned masters were active in Bergen Norway.
If you like to see the marks (soot marks), send me a PM. I not sure about the copyrights about showing marks in books here, so a PM is a safer solution.

That's all i know, hopefully someone else can fill in the rest :-)
Rgds
Qrt.S

[alan.spey]

Many thanks for a very useful and full reply.
You have certainly done more than " fill in the blanks" !
I appreciate that Silver Marks are not an absolute science and that variations do occur.
Bergen in the eighteenth century was a relatively compact port City, of course much involved with the Hanseatic Trade. Is it unusual to find Bergen Silver without a "guardien/assayer" after 1740?
I would have thought that in a place like that it would be difficult not to play by the rules!
I was not aware of Lars Nielsen Greve and assume that he must have been a cousin. Arent Jansen the elder was one of six children as far as I am aware but none of these was Lars Nielsen.

[Hose_dk]

when you hav a year after 1740 - you have mark set by guardein.
In principle all silver has 4 marks maker set by maker and city, month, guardein - 3 marks set by guardein. That is the general roule i Denmark (Norway was Denmark until 1814) but only in the big cities this 4 mark standard was set. In most parts only makrs mark because there was no guardein.

This mark has nothing to do with anything just an examble Bergen 1742 month August

As a curiosum guardein = master - in those days honesty was normal practice.

[alan.spey]

Thank you for this further information which confirms the uninformed conclusion I had reached.

Many thanks again.