Heavy chamberstick with lots of unknown marks

[zilverik]

Hi,

This chamberstick has lots of marks. I count 3 marks on top and 3 marks on the bottom. On the bottom is to see where the topmarks are struck. There are no marks on the nozle, the snuffer, the handle, the border. The inside of the screw is partly copper. The marks on top are very worn. Looks like SA in a square, a round mark in a square and a arm-mark in a rectangular.
The bottom-marks are more clear. I read CCC in a rectangular, a crowned trapezium, a crowned M.
Weight: 302 gr.; High: 5,8 cm (and 12,9 cm with snuffer); Diameter: 11,7 cm; Lenght: 14,5 cm.
There is no mark at all I could find. The whole item looks and feels old. Maybe provincial French, Spanish, Italian or another Western European country. It would surprise me if it appears to be non European.

Regards,

Zilverik



And under:

[zilverik]

Crowned M could be: Mexico 1791-1818?

[zilverik]

Hi,

On the forum, I found maker GCC. See: viewtopic.php?f=38&t=33204&start=20&hilit=gcc
Gio. Carlo Cassar, a Maltese master starting 1774. Even if the mark GCC looks alike, what about the other marks on the chamber stick? Could there be a fit?

Regards,

Zilverik

[zilverik]

Hi,

One step at a time. Malta is getting getting closer. The crowned M on the chamber stick is probably the crowned M used between 1775 and 1797. That is within the period that Gio. Carlo Cassar worked there. See Trev's quote.

Regards,

Zilverik

JOSEPH LEBRUN



Marks: Clenched fist with dagger - Crowned 'R' - 'LE' above 'BR' above 'UN' with a trefoil above.

Joseph Lebrun was noted as being 'Master of the Mint' at Malta in 1799.

The letters 'F', 'R', and 'M' are to be found surmounted by a crown during the grandmastership of Emanuel de Rohan (1775-1797). Following the Knights of St John being driven out of Malta by Napoleon Bonaparte in 1798, the crown above the letters disappears.

Trev.

[dognose]

Hi Zilverik,

I think you've nailed it. Well done.

Trev.

[zilverik]

I think so to. Thank you Trev.
Remains the other marks on top of the platter. Maybe import marks. I looked at Irish import marks, but that's probably wrong.

Regards,

Zilverik

[AG2012]

Excuse me for mentioning: something’s wrong here. There seem to be two screw nuts which is not needed and never made like this (the nut closer to the bottom looks soldered). Besides, something was orbiting the central screw and the diameter of the object was obviously longer than both nuts we see now (circular scratches — red arrows). Why are marks almost obscured by the soldered nut? The handle is not very well bolted. No marks elsewhere?
All said, I have seen saucers transformed into more lucrative chambersticks.
Regards

[zilverik]

Hi AG2012,

You are right. This chamber stick has features of a marriage (parts that originally didn't belong together). And: to many marks on the saucer: three up and three under. No marks on any other part. So no mark on the nozzle, not on the snuffer, not on the handle. Two out of three marks under the saucer are clear to me. The third mark is probably the assayer's mark, so for me these marks are sort of clear. Coming to the marks on top of the saucer: I never have seen them before and they look different than the marks under the saucer. The marks on top are badly struck. I can't imagine that a silversmith is responsible for these marks. On the underside it is to see that the way the upper marks are struck, damaged the saucer (they almost got through). So, that is why I had the idea that it could be tax marks or import marks. Some parts of the chamber stick are not well made (to European standards). The middle part of the crew is made of copper. Very unusual. But, maybe they worked that way in Malta ± 1796? What you pointed out in red makes me think that originally it was probably a saucer for a chamber stick with a nozzle, but not this one. The form of the nozzle differs from the form of the saucer. Not well balanced. The handle and the snuffer are looking O.K. to me, but there is no mark at all. That is unusual and even more when there are 6 marks on the saucer.

Regards,

Zilverik

[AG2012]

On the other hand, now that I have seen additional pictures screw thread looks old (number of leads per cm or inch). Old thread cutting tool are difficult to find and who would bother to search for them? The handle is easier to bolt than solder. An ``old marriage`` I dare say.
Although there are many forms of chambersticks I always look for elevated central part (which does not guarantee genuine candle holder,though, unless entirely made as one piece with all parts hard soldered together).
Regards

[zilverik]

Hi,

Yes, very likely an "old marriage". The elevated central part I like especially with candlesticks. Chamber sticks I like more with a thread. When all parts are hard soldered together, there is less to see and less to examine. Who would bother to search for them? I do.
Nine examples. Interesting to note is that even very good silversmiths use copper parts on the thread (photo number 1). Just an idea about the variety of threads with chamber sticks. I love to see this because it says a lot.

Regards,

Zilverik

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[AG2012]

Beautiful pieces!Thanks for showing. I must admit I have not seen screw nuts made of copper, plated etc. but on the other hand it makes sense because silver threads deteriorate and get loose if unscrewed for cleaning wax (glass bobeches are helpful).