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[tux]

Please explain the silver Hallmarks, 835 stands for 2th silver but the others?
Country/Age/Maker? Thanks!



(admin edit - see Posting Requirements )

[oel]

Hello Tux,

Bogus marks. Let us wait and see to stand to be corrected!

Regards,

Oel

[Bahner]

Hello, possibly Pochon from Berne, Switzerland. Check this thread

viewtopic.php?f=24&t=13342&hilit=bern

Best wishes, Bahner

[oel]

Hello All,

Please correct me if I am wrong but a minimum fineness of 835 does not point to Switzerland. I try to recognize Domestic Silver Marks for Switzerland used; 1882-1934-1935-1995, the standing bear (875) or grouse (800), duck (925). The marks on your item. Your bear supposed to be a Bern makers mark, fine with me.
The face looking to the right, looks like a pseudo Kokoshnik/woman’s head wearing a kokoshnik 1908-1927 (Russian) but please direct me to a Swiss connection. The last mark looks like a bird but I do not recognize my 'famous grouse' and the shape of the shields are all wrong to me. If I read; it is indeed pochon freres who used the berne wappe as their logo - pf was a very prestigious silversmiths serving the noble families of berne until the middle of the last century….. my alarm bells are going off.
However I could be wrong but please show me.

Regards,

Oel

[tux]

Hmm I just found simular hallmarks here on 925-1000 maybe this helps?
http://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13342
Till I dont read a clear answer though?

[tux]

Sorry Bahner already posted the link

[tux]

I do know if an items is remaked they grade it down.
So if an items is 875 then 835 is the mark it'll get since 925 is to much.
The hallmark functions as an "At least"

[tux]

I figured its not more then fair that you people see on what item these marks come from.
I guess you deserve to see it since you people put there energy in it here we go, enjoy!
(Top handle can be taken of to make 2 dishes which fit inside eachothers 1kg)

[oel]

Hi Tux,

Yes it depends on the legal standards of the country of import. The standard indicates an overall minimum fineness. If a county only has two legal standards example being; 925 minimum and 835 minimum a 900 minimum item will be marked 835. However again in your case ‘835.S’ alone is no legal hallmark and if the item has been made in Switzerland why do we not recognize any legal Swiss hallmark?


Oel

[Joerg]

I support the points made towards Pochon Frères in Berne. And to address Oel's concerns: The grouse and bear were not mandatory and no enforcement was and is there in Switzerland to hallmark silver items. Not a lot of silver items from 1890 to 1930 bear the grouse mark, so we should not worry about this mark missing. About Swiss silver standard. The bulk of silver in the early 20th century is of 800 finess standard. But I have Swiss silver, mainly from Jezler in Schaffhausen, marked in 835 standard. (And one item with 833 standard....) I have never seen an item in 875 standard. (Maybe this was in use for pocket watch cases, but this is not a field of my collectors activities).
Anyway, the 835 S mark looks as if it does not belong to the original marking of the item. Maybe an addition while exporting/importing the item.
Tux, any information from what country you got the article? Or from what country your retailer got it from?


Regards

Jörg

[tux]

Hi, thank you all for the support!
I have seen 835S in Germany, without the dots though.
I bought it here in The Netherlands, I don't know where the seller got it from.
The topside is also marked 835 and also the handle which can we removed is marked 835, also 6128.
Ah! I just found the V = Vreemd Tax mark, does the mark tells me Its sold or?

[tux]

Found the V-Mark on all 3 items now.
BTW anyone got anything on the chineese astro question?

[oel]

Hi All,

In my opinion we are still looking at pseudo marks. Please explain the marks; face looking to the right and the bird mark.
Often we see those pseudo/fake marks together with the Dutch V mark; duty mark for gold and silver objects,it gives no guarantee of standard of fineness. It was intended for imported objects only. It was however sometimes by mistake used on old objects of national origin. Valid from 1893 till 1953.If someone could show the original maker’s mark of Pochon Frères and some examples of his work & marks it could be very helpful.
For asro questions we have to consult the stars and have to wait and see.

Oel

[tux]

Ok this is weird, check this out:

(admin edit)

But the V = Vreemd (Unknown) I guess translated is most suitable.
But its "Vreemd" as in Unkown silver? Since its a silver mark?
Doesn't that say its at least made of silver?

[oel]

No Tux not weird. The duty mark V in script- letter stands for the word; ‘Vreemd(e) = Foreign or Imported and not of national origin. The V duty mark has been stamped on silver objects but gives no guarantee of standard of fineness. It was intended for imported objects only, which could be well below any Dutch legal standard but also perhaps higher than de Dutch 1st standard. In other words the mark was punched without an assay test by the assay office after a flat tax has been paid.

Oel

[tux]

Yes ok, but the mark then does say its at least silver, and not plated, right?

[oel]

No Tux the mark indicates; imported silver or white metal, not tested for silver (fineness), taxes paid. No more and no less.

My personal opinion; an item with bogus silver marks and/or silver plated without marks to clearly state SILVER PLATED could, after paid taxes, be punched with the V mark. The authorities earned money and the V mark puts the risk in the hands of a potential (ignorant) buyer. I call this our V.O.C mentality to choose for the money and not to protect the common people and like they say; if you keep them dumb we will keep them poor.

Oel

[tux]

Ok didnt know about the "or white metal" part havent seen it anywhere?
The mark is always combined with the silver hallmarks, strange

[oel]

Hi Tux,

White metal looks like silver but we don’t call it silver. White metal could be an alloy of various non precious metals or below any legal silver standard of fineness but also could be silver of legal standard of fineness.

Let me try to explain this better;
A Hallmark is an official mark or series of marks struck on items made of precious metals. Historically, hallmarks were applied by a trusted party: the 'guardians of the craft' or nowadays by an Assay Office. Hallmarks are a guarantee of certain purity or fineness of the metal as determined by formal metal (assay) testing.
Items with recognized silver hallmarks in Holland/UK and most parts of Europe are called made out of silver.

Items with marks; bogus/pseudo/fake marks, not recognized hallmarks, stand alone numbers like 925 are called made out of white metal.
The word STERLING gives certain guarantees in America and perhaps other parts of the world.
Back to our V mark put on; imported silver with official foreign hallmarks but also the V has been put on imported white metal with bogus/pseudo/ fake marks. Again the V gives no guarantee of standard of fineness.

Regards,

Oel

[tux]

So.. if the 925 is not the gurantee, what is? The Maker mark?