Help me to read the silver marks.

[Elena Russ]

Hello!

I have one interested moment. My article from Swedish bears the date mark W5. But the letter W is not in the table of Swedish data markers! When was this item made? Help me please to identify the silver marker too. Thank you.





marker’s mark GBL and

[oel]

Hi Elna,

Could it be a miss struck/ double punch of the date letter V5?

Regards,

Oel

[Qrt.S]

No Problem, W=V i. e. W5 is 1875. GBL is not a person it is a company Guldsmedsaktiebolaget (goldsmith company) registered 18.1.1868 in Stockholm and still active. Also known to mark GAB.

[Elena Russ]

Hello, friends!

Thank you very much for so intelligible answer! I offer my apologizes for my delayed questions. What is this, what is this item intended for? I suppose, that it the little bowl for dressing table, but I am not quite sure. Dimensions: 11,8 x 8,8 x 1sm. Thank you.

[Hose_dk]

neadles

[dognose]

Hi Qrt.S,

I'm a bit stumped regarding the date letters 'V' and 'W'. Are you saying that these letters are interchangable? If so why would they use both?

I'm puzzled!

Regards Trev.

[Qrt.S]

The Swedish and Finnish year marking system is similar. The Latin alphabet A-Z is used. But, in order to avoid misunderstandings the letters J and W are excluded. However, for reasons unknown some masters sometimes still used either of these letters (J/W instead of I/V) in their year marking. If you stumble into such a case, you just must remember that J=I and W=V. Actually you more seldom find J but sometimes W in the year mark. It's not so complicated as you might think and silver year marks is not an absolute science dear Trev.

[dognose]

Hi Qrt.S,

Many thanks for the explanation. I would not have been surprised by this variation, had it been applied to maker's marks, where a personal preference is to be expected, but I am surprised to see these alternatives used on official date letter marks, where one would expect a strict criteria to apply, but as you state, these marks are not an absolute science.

Regards Trev.

[Qrt.S]

The thing is that the year mark table is of course set by the authorities but the year punch itself is made and the mark is punched by the maker and not by the authorities. There is another similar example as to the Finnish fineness mark. Because it also is made and punched by the maker its outlook might vary. You can see one in the following forms 813H, 813.H, 813.H. (also without H). All are correct and valid.

[dognose]

Ahh.. I was not aware that the date letter was struck by the maker.

Forgive me, but this prompts another couple of questions. The origin of striking a date letter on English silver was an attempt to identify the assayer, a system more clearly visable on Russian and Hamburg assayed pieces, but if the date letter on Swedish and Finnish silver was struck by the maker, then surely it is possible that the mark may have been struck weeks, perhaps months, and in very extreme cases, years, before being sent for assay. If this was the case, why was the date letter ever part of the hallmark system? Presumably, unlike the British assay offices, there was not a precise day for the date letter to be changed, and the struck date would refer to the year of manufacture, and quite possibly not the year of assay.

Sorry to split hairs, but I'm curious to know as to the exact reason that the date letter was used in these countries.

Regards Trev.

[Qrt.S]

Indeed you are now splitting already split hairs. Yes, the English year mark is a part of the assaying system and assaying mark. Its main idea was(is) to find the assayer responsible for having accepted substandard silver and fine him for that. But that procedure was introduced already in 15th century (1478?). The Finnish and Swedish year mark has not that function. It only tells you the year when the object is made. It was introduced in 1689 with some variations compared to the current day.

Maybe we should see it from an other angle. Let's start with assaying. The assaying process has nothing or not necessary anything to do with when the product is made i.e. the year mark. The assaying process only verifies the legal silver fineness. And, yes, in theory the year mark could be punched whenever irrespective of when the object is made. However, I cannot recall having ever faced any difficulties with this as well as that it should have happened. And if it has happened, what would be the problem or actually why would anybody do such a thing? The date mark changes both in Sweden and Finland January 1st every year.
I'm sorry but must say that you lost me, I cannot follow your thinking.

[Hose_dk]

to make confusion complete in denmark and norway - master mark set by master. Year, month (tax mark) and town set by guardein (dk) wardein (no)
but often only masters mark set.

i & j used for same letter, same with v & w. I soppose that it also varied over time. an examble the city of Vejle was spelles Wejle in old times.

[dognose]

Hi Hose,

Thanks for the additional information.

Regards Trev.