Help! Pretty positive its silver, Russian?

[tux]

Site lost my post so I'll make this short:

Looks Russian 84, maybe 78 when reversed? AP TW
Hope someone can help, thanks!

[Zolotnik]

Hi -

it is def. Russian, probably St. Petersburg 1905-12, maker illegible.

Regards
Zolotnik

[tux]

Hi -

it is def. Russian, probably St. Petersburg 1905-12, maker illegible.

Regards
Zolotnik

Ok, thanks!
So is it the 84 silvermark?
I'm pretty sure its silver, but how much? 840/1000?
Thanks!

[Zolotnik]

Hi -

84 Zolotniki = 875/1000

Regards
Zolotnik

[Dad]

Hi, All.

I think it's Warsaw. Assaymaster - AP - Aleksandr Romanov 1899-April 1904
TW - maker - Teodor Werner

Best Reg..

[Zolotnik]

Hi Dad -
Teoder Werner (1876-1896) signed:

WERNERiSa,T.WERNERiSA and T. WERNERiSka - he was long dead before A. Romanov came to Warsaw.

Regards
Zolotnik

[Dad]

Hi Dad -
Teoder Werner (1876-1896) - he was long dead before A. Romanov came to Warsaw.

Regards
Zolotnik

He lived only 20 years???? )))) Use trustworthy information please.

Please look at it: "August Teodor Werner (ur. 13 kwietnia 1836 r. w Warszawie, zm. 20 maja 1902 r. Warszawie), zÅ‚otnik, przemysÅ‚owiec, współzaÅ‚ożyciel Towarzystwa Akcyjnego Fabryk Metalowych “Norblin, Bracia Buch i T.Werner” w Warszawie. UżywaÅ‚ imienia Teodor."

Best. Reg.

[Qrt.S]

Mind my asking but T. Werner's trademark was an anchor. See any? In addition, I have no records of Werner using such an mark as TW (only initials). Polish goldsmiths usually used a mark with the whole name in script in connection with their trademark. So did Werner as Zolotnik also already indicated.
But who is the maker??? No suitable in St Petersburg. However, there is also a possibility that the spoon is from Riga because AP assayed there 1895-1899 before he went to Warsaw. Unfortunately I have no suitable maker there either. Riga might match better due to the initials of the maker's mark.

For the records, AP can also be Anton Vasilijevith Richter 1898-1904 in Astrakhan. However, this is most likely the mentioned Aleksandr Romanov in Warsaw where he assayed 1899 to April 1904 when he moved to St Petersburg and assayed there to 1912.

[Zolotnik]

Hi Dad -

T. Werner worked from 1876-1896 (PL #1914 from1875-1894 ). It is not important how long he lived - it is important how long he worked!
A. Romanov came to Warzaw 1899-1904
So - as a silversmith he was long out, dead or whatever you call it.
I think my informations are trustworthy enough!

@Qrt.S

In St. Petersburg lived a lot of foreigners who prefered Latin initials.
Riga is not very possible - see working period of T. Werner, spoon without engraved date as commonly use in the Baltic states - though it is a "better spoon".

The best I can say: it is an original spoon from Russia (incl. the provinces etc.)

Regards
Zolotnik

[Dad]

Hi, Zolotnik, Qrt.S.

I don't insist.))

I want to note some positions:

The first. The P.L. book isn't a reliable source about the Warsaw makers. All its Warsaw makers are wrongly ranked as Minsk. Warsaw isn't present.

The second. Look at these two pieces. They are obviously made in one workshop. On one - full mark of the maker, but on other - only letters TW.

â„– 1:



â„– 2



The third. I have written "I think". )))))

Best Reg..

[tux]

Cool, thanks for all help!
I will put another question online shortly.
This on will be more difficult I think!

Cheers

[Zolotnik]

Hi Dad -

we all know that PL cover the Polish silver marks under Russian rule in many false ways.
My informations came from Michal Gradowski "ZNAKI NA SREBRZE" (Marks on silver in Poland) - and he nowhere mentiones T W or W T!

On the spoon you have T W, on the jardiniere you have W T! Two different masters?

The teaglass holder and the jardinere have a similar pattern, the first one Latin letters ....Emil (Christian name) the other Kyrillic letters ВЯД (as far as I can see). Both look as authentic as the spoon. So - who is it?

Regards
Zolotnik

[Qrt.S]

I'm out like the mailbox...???

Dad shows a tea glass holder with a kokoshnik mark used 1908-1927 claiming that it is mad by T. Werner (who died in 1902, factum est)
Zolotnik states that T.Werner's working period was 1876-1896 (factum)
Dad shows a jardiner with a kokshnik mark 1898-1908 with a WT maker's mark and claims it is made by Werner who marked TW according to him (but who didn't make anything after 1896).
Etc, etc etc.

Gentlemen, where is the beef?

[Zolotnik]

Hi Dad -

whenever I avoid the nasty word "FAKE", you show some from dubious books or sites. This leads to fruitless discussions with a lot of wasted time and accusations like .."use trustworthy informations please". Maybe you do not read or do not understand what is written in all the threads - they are more or less continuing repetitions.
I am in the lucky situation that I only have to look over my collection to find nearly every object I need for a serious discussion - authentic by the way, with all the marks in the right positions - clear and doubtless.

Here a "double" cigarette case with an internal photo frame, made by T. WERNER from Warzaw







Here the marks, precise and according to the law and rules in the right positions







If you have problems with the over and over explained marks - let me know.

Regards
Zolotnik

[silvercollector99]

There was one silversmith working in St. Petersburg during this time period. I quote from Alexander Ivanov, page 175. Gold and silversmiths in Russia (1600-1926) Volume I.

Willo Tenis
Owner of a silver workshop, mentioned in 1897, Torgovaya str., 6. St. Petersburg. Initials on the hallmark: TB.

It is very possible that Tenis Willo used the latin TW as a hallmark. Silversmiths did not need to register hallmarks after 1896. They could use whatever mark they wanted.

The only other mention of Tenis Willo is in a Sotheby's auction catalog dated 10 June 2010.

101
*Construction of the Olonets Railway Line, 1913, jeton, by the workshop of Tenis Willo, named to O.P. Henry-Greer, in silver,
gold and enamels, 34mm (Ivanov type 43-46), slight enamel damage, very fine £800-1,000

This tells me that Tenis Willo was in business until 1913, or longer. Postnikova does not even list his name. Dad mentions that many silversmiths worked in Russia, but records were lost or incomplete. I believe he is correct and many more can be found through research. Here is a silversmith who can be added to the next edition of Postnikova.

Happy silver hunting.

[Zolotnik]

Hi silvercollector99 -

do you have a photo of the mark of Tenis Willo? If he existed there must be some evidence. Was his mark really T......W, with a lot of space between the two letters? Or WT? Are there photos of other objects from him? If he worked from ca. 1896 until ca.1913 there must be countless objects from him - from jetons(?) to podstakanniki (?) etc. - a wide field of production.

Regards
Zolotnik

[tux]

Nice discussions guys, but I kinda posed this to know if it was real silver.
I thought so but now with all this extra info I was wondering if this oppinion has changed?
Real silver, 84, 875/1000 ? Thanks
I guess the real expert can answer my newest post....

[Qrt.S]

Yes, it is silver in the fineness of 875/1000. No problem with that. The problem is, however, land of origin and who is the maker?

[tux]

Yes, it is silver in the fineness of 875/1000. No problem with that. The problem is, however, land of origin and who is the maker?

Looks Russian to me, only country I know of with the 84 combined with a face?
Maker, who cares in this case? :-D
If you want my oppinion it looks like the: â„– 2 by dad.
I know the letters are mixed up, but have you noticed that the 84 mark is also upside down when you compare it to the TW mark?
And what if (strangly) one of the 2 is a marker mark and the other is a year mark?
Just guessing :)

[Qrt.S]

First of all you should learn a bit regarding Russian marks and marking before you start to guess wild guesses. But let me put it this way. Yes, it Russian but it could be from Poland (Warsaw) or Latvia (Riga) under Russian administration or St Petersburg in Russia. Most likely Warsaw is the correct place, but...? The period can be fixed to 1899-1908. The problem is the maker who cannot for the moment be identified. If he could, it would solve the case. By the way, if you are not interested in who's the maker, what are you interested in?.......... Never mind that, yes the maker's mark is up side down compared to the hallmark, but that has no meaning. On these sites and many other similar sites it often claimed that it was a Russian rule that the hallmark and maker's mark should be marked like that. That is complete nonsense and there is no such rule, edict ukaz, call it whatever, and never was. It is only a circulating rumor copied from one site to another keeping this unverified claim alive. The possibility for the marks being up side down or not is 50/50. When the assayer punched his hallmark, he didn't care less of what way the maker's mark was. He didn't have neither time nor any interest in that matter because it had no meaning whatsoever.
FYI
The TW is the maker's mark
The "head" is called kokoshnik and is the assayer's official hallmark.
The outlook of the hallmark tells you the year or actually the period/time span and as well the assayer. That again tells you the town. However, in this case the period is so long that the assayer Aleksandr Romanov, Cyrillic initials AP, managed to work in three places during this time span. That is the problem, but silver your spoon is, no doubts about that.

Have a nice evening studying Russian marking procedures and legislation.