TP London mark

[Bob Lawrence]

From what I can make out, the marks are a crowned lepard head for London; an "h" for 1783; a lion for sterling; and a TP as the maker mark. I'm not even sure what these are? They look like giant salt shakers, but I don't think they had salt shakers back in 1783. The maker mark is not listed on this site; any help? One ways 13.5 oz. and the other 13.9 oz. The tops come off and also are marked.



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[techsol]

Hi, I do not know who the maker is, but these are sugar casters that have had later Victorian embossed decoration added.

[dognose]

Hi Bob,

Welcome to the Forum.

Thanks for posting such a fascinating first post. I believe you have a pair of examples of the work of a noted English silversmith.......but, noted for all the wrong reasons.

Your castors purport to be the work of Thomas Parr II, an important silversmith of the 18th century and Warden of the Goldsmiths' Company. They bear the date mark, as you noted, of 1783, but this is where things start to go wrong. Thomas Parr II, was probably dead, or at least retired by this date, also the cartouche that surrounds the date letter is usually only to be found on small articles.

The actual maker of your castors could well be Charles Twinam, who was known to use the 'TP' mark on some of his output, if so, they probably date to around c.1890.

Of course, this is just my opinion and it would be good to hear the thoughts of others.

In the meantime, below are the links to a couple of articles that explain more about Charles Twinam and the reasons for his initial success:

http://www.925-1000.com/a_Spurious1899.html

http://www.925-1000.com/a_OB_Twinam1899.html

Trev.

[Granmaa]

I have to agree with Trev.

Firstly, the objects themselves aren't very well proportioned and the chasing is late Victorian.
If you look closely at the marks you'll see they're slightly blurred or smudged, not the result of polishing. This is the result of using "soft punches": making a lead mould of real marks and then striking it on silver.
As Trev says, Lyon and Twinham were known to use the TP mark and the 1783 date letter.

As forgeries, if that's what they are, it's illegal to sell them. My advice would be to get in touch with Goldsmiths' Hall where they have an Antique Silver Plate Committe which will examine the castors and make a judgement on them. If they decide that they are forgeries, they will erase or cross out the marks.
Of course you could always keep them. The Lyon and Twinham case is quite a facinating story, and it's fun to have an example of their work.

Miles

http://www.thegoldsmiths.co.uk/assay-of ... committee/

[Bob Lawrence]

Thank for the info, I think they are probably the work of Charles Twinam. He seemed to have the letter "h" stamp and the TP stamp as well. They certainly seem to be sterling. They belonged to my aunt, who passed away around 14 years ago, and most likely belonged to her parents. I disagree about the proportions being poor. I think they are quite attractive. I guess the next step is to find out if they are in fact sterling. If I was a forger in 1890, I would probably make the pieces silver and not silver plate, because it would be easier to pull off selling something with a forged mark, than a piece that was plate, and more easily detected as a fraud.
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[salmoned]

I suppose that "illegal to sell them" concept only applies in the UK (the OP hasn't indicated a home location, as far as I see). The last thing I would consider doing is sending them into the Hall for possible destruction or disfiguring.

[Bob Lawrence]

I am as they say "Across the pond" in New York, so (at the risk of being edited again) will say that I don't believe the Hallmarking Act will apply. I really came on here to identify the maker, and got much more than I bargained for. Now I have a pair of infamous castors.

[oel]

Cheer up Bob,

There are collectors for those types of castors with the famous pseudo marks made by Charles Twinam. Just hang on to them a little bit longer, make sure they are up to sterling standard and do not have them disfigured. You have the complete story ,make it work to your benefit.

Regards,

Oel

[Qrt.S]

This is the result of using "soft punches": making a lead mould of real marks and then striking it on silver.

[quote="Granmaa"]I have to agree with Trev.

Mind my asking, but I would like to have a more detailed explanation of this procedure. How in the earth can you create a mark on silver with a punch made of lead??? Lead is much softer than silver. What am I missing here???

However, I have seen objects with so called "soft marks" but the reason for that is that a mold has been made of e.g. an authentic old spoon. Now you have the marks with the spoon in the mold. Then you cast a new spoon marks included using the mold. The new spoon has "genuine marks" but the edges are not sharp but "soft", but with lead!? Sorry for asking, but you cannot know it all...

[Granmaa]

Qrt.s,

I've now spoken to two silversmiths about the procedure. I should add that they have carried out the technique purely for research purposes!

Both described the same process: hammer a blank metal stamp into the mark to form an incuse impression on the stamp. Then hammer the stamp onto the object intended to be marked making sure that the silver is annealed, i.e. softer than worked silver.

They differed over the metal used for the stamp. One of them said he had used aluminium and lead, and the other said that lead would be too soft and had used copper.

Miles

[dognose]

Just to confirm that Thomas Parr II died on the 29th June 1780, aged 70 years.

Trev.

[Bob Lawrence]

Does anyone know of the existence of other forged pieces out there by Twinam? The information I have seen on line says that all confiscated items were melted down.