Genuine Judiaca travel candlesticks?

[zilverik]

Hi,

These Judaica travelcandlesticks are quit heavy for their size. 139 gramm. Year 1875. Maker EIS ? Genuine?




http://i52.tinypic.com/2h4yl4o.jpg
http://i53.tinypic.com/11lq8fs.jpg


Regards,

Zilverik

[Juke]

Hi!

Sorry not genuine, marks are not authentic, there are a lot of especially Judica items that are not authentic so one should avoid buying them.

Regards,
Juke

[zilverik]

Hi Juke,

These candlesticks are well made and heavy. A lot of work was spend on them. Why should a silversmith, with good skills, make a forgery of an object out of 1875? In the Netherlands and Germany in those days (some) silversmiths made forgeries, but then they made forgeries of objects out of the 18e, 17e and 16e century. So, who are these masters who made forgeries of 1875 objects? Did they not have the guts and/or the brains to make forgeries of earlier objects? It doesn't make sense to me.

Regards,

Zilverik

[asti]

These candlesticks are well made and heavy. A lot of work was spend on them. Why should a silversmith, with good skills, make a forgery of an object out of 1875?
Zilverik

Hi Zilverik,
Sorry but this "well made" candlesticks are just heavy and nothing more... This silvesmith whit good skils was a machine...

Regards Asti

[zilverik]

Hi Asti,

What do you mean by "was a machine"? Every silversmith used (and uses) some sort of a machine. He doesn't make his silverwork just by hand. You mean a machine after 1875? Maybe a machine out of 1935 to make it look like 1875? That doesn't make sense. Or maybe you mean a machine out of 1980 or around? If so, where did you get your information?

Regards,

Zilverik

[asti]

Hi,
The person ho made this candlesticks used a modern engraving machine. I use this kind of machine for polish and I know what can do. Look on youtube and you can find some cute hand engraving videos, and you will understand the diference of handwork and machinework.

Regards,
Asti

[zilverik]

Hi Asti,

Thank you for your reply.
Do you have a link to the page of youtube that you mean? I am very interested. Since when do you think these new sort of machineworks are used?

Regards,

Zilverik

[Dad]

Hi, Zilverik

Besides, that Asti has told.

1 - In Moscow Judiaca official subjects - a nonsense in 1875
2 - the Punch is wrong. (Ask Ort's)))
3 - On a separate part should be mark.
4 - What carving (screw)? Metric or inch?

Regards, Dad.

[Zolotnik]

Hi zilverik -

please wake up and read some newspaper or watch TV:

China the big country of forgeries - from Rolex to Lacoste, from antiques to modern household goods, from oil drilling gear to spare parts of BMW and Airbus planes - you name it - they make it! Not only half a dozen - container loads. Big, big profit.
Some people buy these things because they can not afford the authentic goods - others buy because they are clueless (stupid)!

If you do not know the history, the different manufacturing methods, the markings and rules - in one word - if you are a naive novice - please stop to buy/collect "Russian" silver!
Invest your money into some books and ask your questions before you have bought some primitive fake - not after.

And believe the experts....

Regards
Zolotnik

[asti]

Hi Zilverik,
This is a real hand engraving: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgMqqA9bge4
Show your candelsticks to your dentist and ask him if can do better. I'm shure he can. Also, he can explain better the machine used on this engraving.
Regards, Asti

[zilverik]

Hi Asti and all,

The youtube-video´s are very interesting. Thank you. I am - to gether with the remarks of Zolotnik, Dad and Juke - convinved now that the engraving on the travel chamber sticks is not authentic. And yes, I made a lot of mistakes, also with other pieces I bought. I must admit, with the Russian pieces I have made more than average mistakes. Makes me more carefull in the future with Russian silverware. I will list more Russian pieces. With nearly all of them I have my doubts now because of the feedback from this forum witch I appeciate very much (althought sometimes the feedback doesn´t makes me very happy.)
Dad´s remarks made me look again and I found marks (84) on the separate parts. That makes me think that the travelchambersticks could be authentic, but the engraving to make this a Judaica is later. That could fit most remarks of Dad and Asti. What do you think?

Regards,

Zilverik

[Zolotnik]

Hi zilverik -

I understand very well how you feel when you detect fakes in your collection - you hope until the last moment that there might be some chance to proof it as authentic.
You can find authentic pieces with authentic marks, reproductions or copies with the mark "museums copy" which you can buy in museum shops or fakes, which are only made to cheat the seller. This is called fraud!!!!
This fakes are more or less poorly made and when you have made your homework, are easy to detect. The fakers (industry) get better and better thanks to fora like this and their objectiv is not to sell you an unexpensive copy but a worthless piece of junk for the highest price possible. So beware, do your homework and save your hard earned money! Always remember that all things which are sought after and get a high price are faked! Example: highend watches like Rolex etc. Just use the internet to investigate or ask some customs/police offices what they see every day.

My always repeated and repeated advice: Learn about the objects you want to buy before you buy them or ask the forum in advance!

Regards and happy hunting
Zolotnik

[Qrt.S]

Yes, Dad as well as Juke in the beginning are absolutely right. Asti's comments are also on the nail so to say. The hallmark punch is an awful fake. You see at that time the punch should be a "troiniki" or triple or poincon if you prefer these expressions, a combination of three punches (or a dvoiniki/double) jointed in one punch. If you look closely at the hallmark punches you immediately realize that they are three separate punches what they should not be. In addition, they look s like sh_t! (sorry). Use the search function and you will find lots of inserts about this troiniki/dvoiniki matter.

Please take Zolotnik's many times repeated advice, first investigate, read, look and learn then buy. It is a really good advice! Here is one other important and easy rule to remember: On a Russian manufactured item every detachable, hinged, riveted, soldered....or what ever way attached separate part must carry a hallmark!. If it doesn't, let it be!

I understand as well as we all do that when something turns out to be a fake and you have in good faith payed much hard money for it, it hurts, it really does. However, you can not blame anybody else than yourself because you bought something that you didn't know what it was. You just thought you knew, but...
It's a hard world we're living in.

[zilverik]

Hi,

Thank you all for your contribution. At least I learned a lot.

Regards,

Zilverik